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One line from the LOTG you wish EVERYONE knew...…..

Sheffields Finest said:
Brilliant, totally ignore the bit you don't agree with and go with the guessing the intent bit as gospel, where does it say that exactly??
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Imo, if the lotg wanted deliberate to mean as intentional, then quite simply it would say handles the ball deliberately. Why elaborate if it is that simple.
But, it doesn't. It says a deliberate act of making contact with the hand or ball... consider these things. So thats what I do. I consider the act the player has made and if that act was deliberate and if that act that was deliberate made contact with the ball using the hand or arm.
I also consider the list of considerations when deciding if a handball offence has occurred.
Just because a player "didnt mean to" handle does not immediately absolve them of a handling offence.
 
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one said:
It would open a whole new can of worms but I agree that it's a more accurate word than deliberate.
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Nothing wrong with deliberate (ITOOTR) IMO, its all this un-natural position stuff thats silly, at times where are the arms supposed to be, you cant jump or do anything meaningful with your arms tucked behind your back. Avoidable is really very subjective too!!
 
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Sheffields Finest said:
James, I think a lawyer would rip that last post to bits if you read the actual law and not your summation!! As I said earlier, this part of the law is a massive grey area and always assuming deliberate handball is definetly shaky ground IMO...

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm.
Handling the ball
The following must be considered:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence
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I think a lawyer would also be able to tell you that your are misinterpreting the consideration about the position of the hand as well as mistaking the word 'consideration' for 'criteria'.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Nothing wrong with deliberate (ITOOTR) IMO, its all this un-natural position stuff thats silly, at times where are the arms supposed to be, you cant jump or do anything meaningful with your arms tucked behind your back. Avoidable is really very subjective too!!
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Finally, something we can agree on :). Totally with you that we see too many handballs given on occasions when hands are away from the body as part of a totally natural movement .. running, jumping etc. For me though, doesn't negate the usefulness of 'un-natural position' per se, just means that it has been implemented in too broad and 'blunt' a way.
 
I give very few handballs. "Unnatural position is an odd one in certain circumstances". Using the blocked cross example, when you're defending and you're stretching to stop the cross with your leg, your arms automatically come out for balance, particularly your front arm which goes the same way as your leg when you stretch to block a cross. In that sense it's a completely natural position for the hand to be in, Not unnatural as it's often portrayed.

The law is a very difficult to have uniformity and it's easy to use the guidelines to both sell your handball decision and not give it ie," unnatural position so it's a handball", you can also say "not intentional,hand never went towards the ball" and not give it.

Whatever the circumstance, you can usually sell it one way or another. The only handballs I give regularly are the ones where the ball has travelled a long way before hitting the hand ala Lacazette, or when everyone stops after it's hit someone's hand because it's already been sold for you.
 
Abeverley said:
Every handball is intentional. Has to be, or else it isn’t handball.
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Also not neccessarily..

Handball law does not ask you to judge intent... only to judge if a deliberate act of the hand or arm making contact with the ball has occurred. Which, whilst similar is a very subtle difference in shat yoh are being asked to apply. E.g. a deliberate handball offence can occur without the player intending to...

Do I detect a theme on this forum at thr moment? ... hopefully ifab totally overhaul handball and make it less complicated
 
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JamesL said:
Also not neccessarily..

Handball law does not ask you to judge intent... only to judge if a deliberate act of the hand or arm making contact with the ball has occurred. Which, whilst similar is a very subtle difference in shat yoh are being asked to apply. E.g. a deliberate handball offence can occur without the player intending to...

Do I detect a theme on this forum at thr moment? ... hopefully ifab totally overhaul handball and make it less complicated
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I know what you’re saying. I should have used the word deliberate. In my mind it’s similar to a deliberate act by a defender which resets offside. In a way.
 
one said:
Actually the word the law uses is deliberate. There has to be a deliberate act in there. If the direct intent is to handle the ball or not has been the subject of debate since @Sheffields Finest discovered the internet.
Edit: :)
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Great to see our former convicts putting their new found freedoms to good use! Healthy debate should be encouraged....
 
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JamesL said:
Also not neccessarily..

Handball law does not ask you to judge intent... only to judge if a deliberate act of the hand or arm making contact with the ball has occurred. Which, whilst similar is a very subtle difference in shat yoh are being asked to apply. E.g. a deliberate handball offence can occur without the player intending to...

Do I detect a theme on this forum at thr moment? ... hopefully ifab totally overhaul handball and make it less complicated
Click to expand...

Dermot Gallacher said on ref watch yesterday that it’s not deliberate handball if you’re trying to protect your face.
 
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