Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
I thought it would be needed tonight when I saw Mr Moss was ref but the AR made the call....
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Oh jeezo it works.....
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Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
And allowed a perfectly valid goal to stand. Which afterall is the objective of footbal. To score more goals than your opponent
And I dont think anyone has any less respect for the AR....looked like handshakes all round from both teams at the end
We all know the referee is perfectly entitled to change a decision if he realises he has made a mistake and play has not restarted etc...which is what this effectively is
Can I also add, how credible you wish the AR to be whilst making an incorrect (yes it was extremely close) call? Surely the credibilty comes from the correct decision. Disallowing valid goals in the name of looking good is just ridiculous and to even suggest doing so is just as absurd.
And I dont think anyone has any less respect for the AR....looked like handshakes all round from both teams at the end
We all know the referee is perfectly entitled to change a decision if he realises he has made a mistake and play has not restarted etc...which is what this effectively is
Can I also add, how credible you wish the AR to be whilst making an incorrect (yes it was extremely close) call? Surely the credibilty comes from the correct decision. Disallowing valid goals in the name of looking good is just ridiculous and to even suggest doing so is just as absurd.
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one
RefChat Addict
Got the correct outcome on this occasion? Yes. Does it work? Hardly.
The correct outcome was achieved by going through the wrong process which means in other similar occasions this could have been a big stuff up and that is why there are so many opponents of the VAR system. Allow me to explain.
The VAR protocol for ARs is to delay the flag signal when there is a close call for offside and an imminent goal scoring opportunity (until the opportunity has passed).
However the AR here flagged almost immediately.
So what could have gone wrong. The keeper or the striker could have stopped seeing the flag. Yes I know, they should play the whistle but you can just imagine the kind of flak VAR would get if the keeper stopped, a goal was scored and VAR allowed it.
How about the referee sees the flag and blows immediately to stop a collision, a goal is scored after the whistle and replay shows it was not offside. More issues.
VAR was introduced to eliminate some human errors. While it does in some cases, if correct protocol/process is not used it will introduce other errors which wouldn't have otherwise been there. And on the balance of it will be determental to the game. And that is what has been happening to A-League in Australia.
The correct outcome was achieved by going through the wrong process which means in other similar occasions this could have been a big stuff up and that is why there are so many opponents of the VAR system. Allow me to explain.
The VAR protocol for ARs is to delay the flag signal when there is a close call for offside and an imminent goal scoring opportunity (until the opportunity has passed).
However the AR here flagged almost immediately.
So what could have gone wrong. The keeper or the striker could have stopped seeing the flag. Yes I know, they should play the whistle but you can just imagine the kind of flak VAR would get if the keeper stopped, a goal was scored and VAR allowed it.
How about the referee sees the flag and blows immediately to stop a collision, a goal is scored after the whistle and replay shows it was not offside. More issues.
VAR was introduced to eliminate some human errors. While it does in some cases, if correct protocol/process is not used it will introduce other errors which wouldn't have otherwise been there. And on the balance of it will be determental to the game. And that is what has been happening to A-League in Australia.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
In interests of fairness, the flagged offside was 25 yards from goal, the flag did not go up basically on the penalty spot.
A valid goal, which would otherwise have been wrongly disallowed, was scored.
If going forward that also means red cards are correctly issued and so on, that can only be a good thing.
Certainly in England, its still as we know, a trial, and this was what, game 3? Of course plenty things need ironed out but if this was the first actual case to be reviewed by the man in the van ( not forgetting the VAAR) then, it was smooth, well signalled, it was done respectfully, with little protest and in a timely manner.
Keepers, and indeed defenders at high levels rarely stop at the flag, esp good defenders, nearly every game you see a "great save keeper was clearly unaware flag was up". These guys are focussed and will do what it takes to keep the ball out
A valid goal, which would otherwise have been wrongly disallowed, was scored.
If going forward that also means red cards are correctly issued and so on, that can only be a good thing.
Certainly in England, its still as we know, a trial, and this was what, game 3? Of course plenty things need ironed out but if this was the first actual case to be reviewed by the man in the van ( not forgetting the VAAR) then, it was smooth, well signalled, it was done respectfully, with little protest and in a timely manner.
Keepers, and indeed defenders at high levels rarely stop at the flag, esp good defenders, nearly every game you see a "great save keeper was clearly unaware flag was up". These guys are focussed and will do what it takes to keep the ball out
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santa sangria
RefChat Addict
So, the VAR replay shows that the player was offside by a boot length - maybe a bit more - and possibly in a position where the AR could not said boot.
Is this a clear and obvious mistake?
What is the definition of clear and obvious?
In real time this is a perfectly acceptable original decision in the context of football as we know it from the last 50 years.
The result of the VAR intervention - the voice of god - here was to crush the flow of the game no doubt and to undermine the AR - and to make Moss look daft. This AR, and plenty more, will now move their "flash-effect-radar" what, maybe 50cm south, and flag less.
What's sad here is that the AR is doubly "at fault" according to the new "laws" - it's a wrong call, and it's wrong procedure.
Gutted for him. Gutted for us. Gutted personally as it makes me want to officiate less.
I think the we will collectively lose match control as a result of these interventions because players and coaches will trust us less because "mistakes" are being highlighted and decisions are being reversed. This scenario was a fail, again. Overall, it's a massive fail IMHO, especially because:
AL PLAYERS AND COACHES WILL THINK THAT DECISIONS SHOULD BE REVERSED.
Is this a clear and obvious mistake?
What is the definition of clear and obvious?
In real time this is a perfectly acceptable original decision in the context of football as we know it from the last 50 years.
The result of the VAR intervention - the voice of god - here was to crush the flow of the game no doubt and to undermine the AR - and to make Moss look daft. This AR, and plenty more, will now move their "flash-effect-radar" what, maybe 50cm south, and flag less.
What's sad here is that the AR is doubly "at fault" according to the new "laws" - it's a wrong call, and it's wrong procedure.
Gutted for him. Gutted for us. Gutted personally as it makes me want to officiate less.
I think the we will collectively lose match control as a result of these interventions because players and coaches will trust us less because "mistakes" are being highlighted and decisions are being reversed. This scenario was a fail, again. Overall, it's a massive fail IMHO, especially because:
AL PLAYERS AND COACHES WILL THINK THAT DECISIONS SHOULD BE REVERSED.
it's a clear and obvious error as the replays show he's clearly onside. yes it's tight and incredibly hard to call in real time, but offsides are pretty clear cut, you're either off or you're on. If the technology proves one or the other you shouldn't be able to say, oh it's too tight therefore we'll stick with the original, wrong decision.
it's different for fouls and misconduct where interpretation and opinion come into decision making
it's different for fouls and misconduct where interpretation and opinion come into decision making
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Nothing was reversed. The flag went up. Play continued. Goal scored. Goal given. ( flag as we know is a signal from ar to ref that he has judged someone to be in an offside position and has decided to bring this to the attention of the referee).
Without VAR, had Moss made his own call that he was not accepting the offside flag, the correct call would have been made.
The offside flag would have had to have been accepted by Moss for the decision to be reversed.
Without VAR, had Moss made his own call that he was not accepting the offside flag, the correct call would have been made.
The offside flag would have had to have been accepted by Moss for the decision to be reversed.
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
So, if this farcical system is adopted in the name of keeping the clubs happy, all that will happen in similar scenarios is flag will go up, nobody will do anything, play will continue until a goal is either scored or not....at which point the referee will make a decision.
At which point if a goal is scored, we will twiddle our thumbs for a couple of minutes to see if it was offside or not.....if it was, we will then wait a few more minutes while the ref sorts out the restart, which might 20-30 yds further up the pitch.....so before you know it there’s 4-5 minutes of additional time from one incident.......
Yeah....really going to improve the game.
At which point if a goal is scored, we will twiddle our thumbs for a couple of minutes to see if it was offside or not.....if it was, we will then wait a few more minutes while the ref sorts out the restart, which might 20-30 yds further up the pitch.....so before you know it there’s 4-5 minutes of additional time from one incident.......
Yeah....really going to improve the game.
i don't think the system works well in its current format (it should be a challenge based system imo) and the point you raise is the obvious hole! you'll have varying reactions by players and officials to similar offside scenarios...
player offside, flag up, ref blows, goal scored cannot be allowed
player offside, flag up, ref doesn't blow, goal scored can be allowed
i dont see a way round this without ARs being told not to flag for tight offside calls which might lead to goals...but where do you draw the line!?
player offside, flag up, ref blows, goal scored cannot be allowed
player offside, flag up, ref doesn't blow, goal scored can be allowed
i dont see a way round this without ARs being told not to flag for tight offside calls which might lead to goals...but where do you draw the line!?
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Are you really disputing a valid goal was scored which would otherwise have not been given?
Ok it was 1-0 at the time but if this is 0-0 and the last min? Its a goal and the tech avail assisted the officials to make the right call.
No, it wont always be as smooth as last night. But a valid goal, no silly cautions for dissent, no managers sent to stand for protesting. and what, 56 secs was it?
Ok it was 1-0 at the time but if this is 0-0 and the last min? Its a goal and the tech avail assisted the officials to make the right call.
No, it wont always be as smooth as last night. But a valid goal, no silly cautions for dissent, no managers sent to stand for protesting. and what, 56 secs was it?
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
Yep, quite happy to dispute it.
The system has worked perfectly fine for many many years....and you want to change it to stop players getting cautioned for dissent or managers sent to the stands?
How about they just grow up and behave like adults instead of kids? That would work as well?
It’s a gimmick being rolled out to appease the money men of football....it does nothing for the ‘spirit of the game’....how long before we see the first caution for a player protesting to the ref who doesn’t send it to the VAR?
The system has worked perfectly fine for many many years....and you want to change it to stop players getting cautioned for dissent or managers sent to the stands?
How about they just grow up and behave like adults instead of kids? That would work as well?
It’s a gimmick being rolled out to appease the money men of football....it does nothing for the ‘spirit of the game’....how long before we see the first caution for a player protesting to the ref who doesn’t send it to the VAR?
Correct decision, sure. Conclusive proof that the system works and is definitely a good thing......not in my opinion.
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
You are content to deny teams valid goals? Are you sure football officiating is your thing? Players play to score more goals than the opposition, fans pay in to see their team score more goals than the opposition but your happy to disallow them?
Of course we now await the season stats for the VAR most disputed official...
Ciley Myrus
RefChat Addict
Or VAAR as nobody will tell us whether Jones,Kirkup, or both, reviewed and made last nights call...
Padfoot
The Persecuted One
I’m happy to leave the decision making with the 3 match officials.....the same way that we have done for years.
Football is not supposed to be an exact science with everyone getting everything 100% correct.
A very fair question - corner decisions are not reviewable if I remember correctly, and a corner that leads to a goal is unlikely to be included in a post-goal review. This is why a challenge system makes most sense to me - if a manager fails to challenge a corner that leads to a goal, he's got no one to blame but himself.