Offside Situation

[one]

I don't think anyone is saying that. Either you truly don't understand the concept of deliberate play or you are willfully not understanding the concept of deliberate play - I can't decide which.

"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage."

The 'deliberate play' bit is the defender trying to kick the ball away. That he did that not successfully do so does not mean that the action was not deliberate. That takes care of any possible offside.

Now to the deliberate handling bit (separate altogether from the deliberate playing of the ball). The defender misses his kick and the ball hits his hand (and if you think that the defender intended hit the ball with his hand then there's no helping you).

The deliberate play (trying to kick the ball) negates the offside. There is no deliberate handling. Therefore, goal.

I am not sure you got his point. Trying (attempting) to kick the ball is not a deliberate play. Play is specifically define in LOTG as
Played
Action by a player which makes contact with the ball

His point (which I don't agree with, though a very good point) is, even though the player tried to kick the ball he did not make contact with the foot so that can not be considered played. So while the foot action was deliberate, it did not play the ball. The hand played the ball but it was not deliberate.

My response is a bit different. I must say we are dissecting the wording of laws I am not sure was written to be applied word for word in such exceptional circumstances.
It comes down to the interpretation of the definition of played vs handball. For me OP did make a deliberate action. That satisfies the action bit. He also made contact with the ball, put them together and he played the ball. But the deliberate act is not attributed to the hand so it can not be handball.

 

[soccerwatch18]

I am not sure you got his point. Trying (attempting) to kick the ball is not a deliberate play. Play is specifically define in LOTG as
Played
Action by a player which makes contact with the ball

His point (which I don't agree with, though a very good point) is, even though the player tried to kick the ball he did not make contact with the foot so that can not be considered played. So while the foot action was deliberate, it did not play the ball. The hand played the ball but it was not deliberate.

My response is a bit different. I must say we are dissecting the wording of a laws I am not sure was written to be applied word for word in such exceptional circumstances.
It comes down to the interpretation of the definition of played vs handball. For me OP did make a deliberate action. That satisfies the action bit. He also made contact with the ball and put them together and he played the ball. But the deliberate act was is not attributed to the hand so it can not be a handball.

Point taken..though actually I don't think there is any definitive evidence either that his foot touched the ball or didn't...we just can't tell with the video provided.

If he had attempted to play the ball and not touched it at all, I would agree with you that the attacker would be offside. The fact that he tried to play the ball, missed it, but it then hit his body (action which makes contact with the ball) makes it a deliberate play. Just because it strikes the hand/arm does not make it less of a deliberate play the ball, just as if he had missed his kick and it hit his standing leg would be deliberate play. The fact remains that he did make contact with the ball and therefore played it. He performed an action which made contact with the ball - even if it wasn't the contact he planned. So I agree with you but still disagree with is point. But that's what we're all here for, no?

This video is a great one for discussion. I can see this sort of clip as one of the FIFA/UEFA RAP videos.

 

[Big Cat]

I am not sure you got his point. Trying (attempting) to kick the ball is not a deliberate play. Play is specifically define in LOTG as
Played
Action by a player which makes contact with the ball

His point (which I don't agree with, though a very good point) is, even though the player tried to kick the ball he did not make contact with the foot so that can not be considered played. So while the foot action was deliberate, it did not play the ball. The hand played the ball but it was not deliberate.

My response is a bit different. I must say we are dissecting the wording of laws I am not sure was written to be applied word for word in such exceptional circumstances.
It comes down to the interpretation of the definition of played vs handball. For me OP did make a deliberate action. That satisfies the action bit. He also made contact with the ball, put them together and he played the ball. But the deliberate act is not attributed to the hand so it can not be handball.

Agreed

Point taken..though actually I don't think there is any definitive evidence either that his foot touched the ball or didn't...we just can't tell with the video provided.

If he had attempted to play the ball and not touched it at all, I would agree with you that the attacker would be offside. The fact that he tried to play the ball, missed it, but it then hit his body (action which makes contact with the ball) makes it a deliberate play. Just because it strikes the hand/arm does not make it less of a deliberate play the ball, just as if he had missed his kick and it hit his standing leg would be deliberate play. The fact remains that he did make contact with the ball and therefore played it. He performed an action which made contact with the ball - even if it wasn't the contact he planned. So I agree with you but still disagree with is point. But that's what we're all here for, no?

This video is a great one for discussion. I can see this sort of clip as one of the FIFA/UEFA RAP videos.

Agreed

 

[JH]

I don't think anyone is saying that. Either you truly don't understand the concept of deliberate play or you are willfully not understanding the concept of deliberate play - I can't decide which.

"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage."

The 'deliberate play' bit is the defender trying to kick the ball away. That he did that not successfully do so does not mean that the action was not deliberate. That takes care of any possible offside.

Now to the deliberate handling bit (separate altogether from the deliberate playing of the ball). The defender misses his kick and the ball hits his hand (and if you think that the defender intended hit the ball with his hand then there's no helping you).

The deliberate play (trying to kick the ball) negates the offside. There is no deliberate handling. Therefore, goal.

"Played
Action by a player which makes contact with the ball"

He missed the ball with his foot, therefore he DID NOT play it. (If you say he played it deliberately with his arm, I would say handball)
If you think I thought it was deliberate handball, you either truly don't understand the concept of my posts or you are wilfully not understanding the concept of my posts - I can't decide which.

Your arrogance is ironic.

 

[JH]

It comes down to the interpretation of the definition of played vs handball. For me OP did make a deliberate action. That satisfies the action bit. He also made contact with the ball, put them together and he played the ball. But the deliberate act is not attributed to the hand so it can not be handball.

I'm just not sure how we can conveniently say "yes he deliberately played the ball with his arm, but it's not a free-kick because it's to do with offside". He didn't play it deliberately with his arm, we all know that, he meant to kick it and once he missed it, had no time to adjust the arm. Falls under deflection for me.

 

[soccerwatch18]

"Played
Action by a player which makes contact with the ball"

He missed the ball with his foot, therefore he DID NOT play it. (If you say he played it deliberately with his arm, I would say handball)
If you think I thought it was deliberate handball, you either truly don't understand the concept of my posts or you are wilfully not understanding the concept of my posts - I can't decide which.

Your arrogance is ironic.

Not sure what you're on about really. He did perform an action which made contact with the ball. We're not even sure it didn't graze off his foot.

Jog on.

 

[JH]

Not sure what you're on about really. He did perform an action which made contact with the ball. We're not even sure it didn't graze off his foot.

Jog on.

So he deliberately played it with his arm? Got it.

 

[Big Cat]

So he deliberately played it with his arm? Got it.

So how about a ball gets kicked and hits an attacker on the arm accidentally, from which another attacker in an offside position receives the ball
Is this an offside offence? The answer would be yes and hopefully this illustrates an equivalence
I think it's complicating things too much to merge Law 11 with Law 12
In the OP, it's an intentional play gone wrong for the purposes of Law 11 and Law 12 is only relevant if the HB was deliberate
Hope that clears things up

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Let's simplify this for a moment - take the handling out of the equation.

Say, in this scenario, instead of hitting his arm, the ball hit his backside. He tried to kick it, he misses, ball bounces up and hits his backside instead and goes to the PIOP. Is it still playing the ball if he hit it with the wrong body part?

Establishing this is probably a good place to start.

I'm inclined to think that 'attempting to kick the ball, missing and have it strike another body part' constitutes playing the ball. So if that's the case, whether or not the handling is accidental or deliberate becomes irrelevant.

Elleray has previously confirmed that DHB can count as playing the ball when it comes to nullifying an offside (if we argue it's DHB and not accidental).

Even if it's accidental, IMO the fact that he tried to kick it is sufficient to qualify it as a play on the ball.

The ONLY reason you'd disallow the goal is if you believe the actions don't constitute a play on the ball AND the handling is accidental. Because if the handling is deliberate, that's a play on the ball and the offside is nullified.