offside or penalty

[AlexF]

Also, if the referee allows the "advantage" and the goal the offside issue comes into question again.

Ignoring the GK/attacker thing earlier, which the officiating crew didn't feel was an offence, the offside as offence issue doesn't comes into play under the 16-17 LotG. When this game was played (2 years ago), sure. Heck, this incident is the reason mentioned by IFAB when they put out the new Law 11 interpretations and clarifications, specifically around what's on page 78 of the 16-17 Laws (my emphasis):

A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent) is not considered to have gained an advantage.

A ‘save’ is when a player stops a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body except the hands (unless the goalkeeper within the penalty area).

So, is the player in offside position committing the offence of offside? Let's break it down:

• Position? Yes. Clearly.
• Proximity? It appears so.
• Movement toward ball? Nope. No impact either as the defender makes a clear play on the ball.

If the defender heads it, and the attacker gets it? Offside offence due to the deliberate save and thus gaining an advantage.

Since the defender handles the ball (and is not the GK), as per the quote form pg 78 above, this becomes a deliberate play, thus no offence. (it must be a deliberate play... because deliberate handling...)

So, by the time the whistle goes in this situation (just after the netting bulges with the ball over the goal line between the posts and under the crossbar), there is no reason for us to disallow this goal.

Give the goal. Then caution the defender.

I agree with this but only up to a point. In this scenario what most benefits the non offending team - goal + yellow card or penalty + red card?

FIFA has said in the past that the "ultimate result of an advantage should be a goal." By that, it suggests that a goal is the desired outcome here. Otherwise, do you change your logic if this happens in the first minute? The 90th? What if the defender already has a caution?

 

[OIREF!]

by the time the whistle goes in this situation

I think this is yet another issue to debate about this incident. By the time the attacker receives the ball there are 3 defenders between him and the goal. Did he actually gain an advantage from the initial offside position?

by the time the whistle goes in this situation

Good point - how many referees would have reacted to the handball and whistled before the ball it the net?

I'm loving this clip, so much to discuss.

 

[AlexF]

I think this is yet another issue to debate about this incident. By the time the attacker receives the ball there are 3 defenders between him and the goal. Did he actually gain an advantage from the initial offside position?

Well, seeing that it's not an offence to be in an offside position, I hardly see that as relevant at all...

Especially since (as I noted above), this player is not committing the offence because there's a) no impact (as per the new directive) and b) when he does play the ball, it's come to him from a deliberate play by a defender.

I'm loving this clip, so much to discuss.

A few other instructors I work with and I refer to this as "the clip of all clips"

 

[bloovee]

I think this is correct in the law. Blue 20 impedes the GK, becomes active, and the offside should be given.
However, if you want to ignore the offside then red and pen. The defender has to punished with the red here in the spirit of the game

If I've understood the German commentary properly, they say offside was given for Blue 20 impeding the GK and becoming active so offside. As to what if it wasn't offside, I'm not sure Blue could complain about the RC and PK - Blue 20 appealed for it. In the 88th minute I suppose Reds might prefer to lose a man and take the chance on the penalty being missed.

Nurnberg (reds) then scored to make it 3-1. It's complicated further as the Hertha manager claimed the referee told him he gave the FK for a foul on the keeper not offside. NB there's no flag from the AR when GK and Blue 20 touch.

 

[pankaye]

Nurnberg (reds) then scored to make it 3-1. It's complicated further as the Hertha manager claimed the referee told him he gave the FK for a foul on the keeper not offside. NB there's no flag from the AR when GK and Blue 20 touch.

If indeed the ref gave it for the foul on the keeper, would you still caution the defender for unsporting behaviour? I would. thoughts

 

[bloovee]

I'd be too chicken.

 

[McTavish]

It's complicated further as the Hertha manager claimed the referee told him he gave the FK for a foul on the keeper not offside. NB there's no flag from the AR when GK and Blue 20 touch.

...and the ref seems to quite clearly give an IDFK...