The Ref Stop

Offside Law 11

myrakheti

myrakheti

New Member
A free kick is awarded to the ABlue team, 10 yards outside 18yard box. The HRed team form a defensive wall just inside the box. Two players from ABlue deliberately stand in an offside position 2 yards behind the defending wall, not interfering with the goalkeeper. The whistle is blown and the free kick taken, a defender from HRed jumps to defend the ball and it glances of his head. The ball goes to one of the ABlue players standing in a offside position, shoots and score a goal. The clarity I am looking for is, should the goal be allowed law 11 because the defender attempted to defend the ball(which is natural). It feels wrong, because, it not in the spirit of the game I feel.
 
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myrakheti said:
A free kick is awarded to the ABlue team, 10 yards outside 18yard box. The HRed team form a defensive wall just inside the box. Two players from ABlue deliberately stand in an offside position 2 yards behind the defending wall, not interfering with the goalkeeper. The whistle is blown and the free kick taken, a defender from HRed jumps to defend the ball and it glances of his head. The ball goes to one of the ABlue players standing in a offside position, shoots and score a goal. The clarity I am looking for is, should the goal be allowed law 11 because the defender attempted to defend the ball(which is natural). It feels wrong, because, it not in the spirit of the game I feel.
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My suggestion is that you read the guidance, in the LOTG, on deliberate play and think about how that applies to your scenario.
 
JamesL said:
As you describe it. No. It does not read like a deliberate play
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Agree. A few years ago there would certainly have been an argument that it counts as a deliberate play. Modern guidance, however, makes it clear this would be a deflection and not reset OS.
 
A what distance does stopping a shot on goal become a save then?
 
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ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
As per earlier message, needs to be going into or very near to the goal (Law 11). In this case, the goalkeeper was in position to save.
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I don’t think the fact the GK is behind him necessarily means it can’t be a save. For example, a defender inside the GA but in front of the GK is still making a save if he blocks a shot, even if the GK was also in a position to make the save. But I agree in this scenario it’s hard to call it a save—but it doesn’t matter, as itis clearly a deflection. (IIRC when the save provision first was there, “save“ wasn’t defined at all. I thought the definition was added to be clear that “save” could still apply to a shot that was going to go slightly wide. But I think at the end of the day, “save“ is still primarily in the eye of a beholder… does it quack like a duck, so to speak.)
 
socal lurker said:
I don’t think the fact the GK is behind him necessarily means it can’t be a save. For example, a defender inside the GA but in front of the GK is still making a save if he blocks a shot, even if the GK was also in a position to make the save. But I agree in this scenario it’s hard to call it a save—but it doesn’t matter, as itis clearly a deflection. (IIRC when the save provision first was there, “save“ wasn’t defined at all. I thought the definition was added to be clear that “save” could still apply to a shot that was going to go slightly wide. But I think at the end of the day, “save“ is still primarily in the eye of a beholder… does it quack like a duck, so to speak.)
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I agree - I was commenting on this OP scenario in response to a question.
The law was changed in part because it previously mentioned the goalkeeper making a save, now extended to all players, plus as you say the inclusion of a shot that may have entered the goal.
 
I also think it is not a save. Also that the new law additions intend to have the it as offside with one caveat. If it was an attempted clearance header gone wrong then even the new law wants no offside.
 
I think I've mentioned this before but 'deliberate play' no longer means deliberate play in law. It's much easier to use the term 'controlled play'.
 
Mr Dean said:
I think I've mentioned this before but 'deliberate play' no longer means deliberate play in law. It's much easier to use the term 'controlled play'.
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I think it goes a bit behind controlled play. I think it also includes a fluffed opportunity at a controlled play.

But this is really no different from so many areas of the Laws—the language of the Law doesn’t change, but the understanding of what it means shifts. The deliberate play by a defender was significantly broadened for a few years, and then shrunk back to something very similar to what it was before the broadening.
 
socal lurker said:
I think it goes a bit behind controlled play. I think it also includes a fluffed opportunity at a controlled play.
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I agree, but only to the extent that it depends broadly on the skill level of the players. In the PL that fluffed opportunity definitely has to be considered, Dog & Duck v Kings Head I'm almost certainly giving offside.
 
Martiju said:
I agree, but only to the extent that it depends broadly on the skill level of the players. In the PL that fluffed opportunity definitely has to be considered, Dog & Duck v Kings Head I'm almost certainly giving offside.
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While I agree that what the opportunity for a controlled play changes dramatically with skill levels, it doesn’t go away even at low levels.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
It does not appear to meet the criteria for a "save", i.e. going into or very near the goal - the defender was at the front of the penalty area.
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Generally speaking, I'd be a little careful with using the location of the defender in question to judge whether or not a save has occurred - the simple definition given in the LOTG is "A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body". So, basically, if the play / touch from the attacker is taking the ball towards the goal (or even very close to it), with enough power to reach the goal, then this would fulfil the required criteria, regardless of defender location.
 
Russell Jones said:
Generally speaking, I'd be a little careful with using the location of the defender in question to judge whether or not a save has occurred - the simple definition given in the LOTG is "A ‘save’ is when a player stops, or attempts to stop, a ball which is going into or very close to the goal with any part of the body". So, basically, if the play / touch from the attacker is taking the ball towards the goal (or even very close to it), with enough power to reach the goal, then this would fulfil the required criteria, regardless of defender location.
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I was commenting on the OP scenario, with the defender at the front of the penalty area and the goalkeeper in the goal and alert.
 
ChasObserverRefDeveloper said:
I was commenting on the OP scenario, with the defender at the front of the penalty area and the goalkeeper in the goal and alert.
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The position / alertness of the GK are irrelevant as to whether the defender's actions should be classed as a save. The law is based around the purpose of the defender's action (to stop a ball heading towards goal) rather than whether the action actually stopped a goal.
 
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