A&H

Newcastle V Leicester

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Paul_10

Well-Known Member
Right decision to book Guimaraes or should it of been upgraded to a red?

It does look one of those where it feels it should be a red but the referee having a very good view and seeing it only as a yellow probably puts the VAR in a difficult position as no doubt he gave yellow because of the lack of intensity and the images would back that up.

I do keep saying it but I do think these SG1 referees do have a real issue identifying SFP unless it's absolutely obvious. Is it because the bar is too high for SFP in the PL, is it pressure of keeping it 11 against 11, either way when you see this and the Mings tackles of studs that high and only yellows are given then you have to question whether it's poor officiating or poor guidance?

I also thought is it the newer SG1 refs that are struggling with this but when you see an experienced referee like Marriner seemingly went for the safe yellow then maybe it's more across the board.
 
The Referee Store
The height of Guimares's boot was the issue here. If he does that in Europe next season he'll be off.

Doing my best to view the challenge objectively, I don't think the challenge was excessively forceful and therefore not SFP.

I think Mariner and the VAR team got that right.
 
It's consistent with a number of similar borderline calls this season which have all ended up yellow in the PL.

I'm relatively confident red is a better decision in almost all of these cases.
 
GraemeS said:
It's consistent with a number of similar borderline calls this season which have all ended up yellow in the PL.

I'm relatively confident red is a better decision in almost all of these cases.
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So is that down to the guidelines of what the PGMOL wants or is it what we debated in here, go safe yellow and if VAR gets involved then so be it or maybe it's a bit of both?

If studs to above ankles, faces, stomach and knees are not classed as SFP regardless of intensity then what is classed as SFP in the PGMOL terms? Of course I wouldn't want it to go the way of France and Spain where red cards are thrown around like confetti but player welfare has to be taken into account and the fact for like you guys who are refereeing, it can't possibly help because "well thats a yellow in the PL".
 
Paul_10 said:
So is that down to the guidelines of what the PGMOL wants or is it what we debated in here, go safe yellow and if VAR gets involved then so be it or maybe it's a bit of both?
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I think we're seeing what PGMOL wants (at least wants at the moment--we'll see if that evolves with Webb). I would presume that after significant controversies, at least internally, PGMOL is telling the Rs not just whether it was C&O but what the preferred call is. If they were telling the Rs that the preferred calls on these were red, presumably the Rs would start to be shifting those calls. (I can't say for certain that happens from PGMOL, but I would expect it to. I know it happens with PRO and MLS. And I would guess that if it hasn't happened historically, it will start happening with Webb.)
 
It was high but there really wasn't a lot of force, whatever on-field decision was made there's no way VAR would have been getting involved.
 
Caution looked harsh until they got the slomo engine revved up and running. Good spot Ref, move on
 
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Does anyone have a real time speed clip??

Stills and slow-mos are no good.

The point of contact here around an area where SFP should start to be considered, but without being able to see force and intensity a decision can't be given accurately as not all the facts are available.

Basically, just because there is contact on the knee / thigh area does not automatically make this a red card.

You can easily sell one with the stills and slow mo of course but I'm not prepared to nail my flag to that mast without the full speed video.
 
JamesL said:
Does anyone have a real time speed clip??

Stills and slow-mos are no good.

The point of contact here around an area where SFP should start to be considered, but without being able to see force and intensity a decision can't be given accurately as not all the facts are available.

Basically, just because there is contact on the knee / thigh area does not automatically make this a red card.

You can easily sell one with the stills and slow mo of course but I'm not prepared to nail my flag to that mast without the full speed video.
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@CaptainsPlease ^ ^ ^

What he said ... ;)
 
JamesL said:
Does anyone have a real time speed clip??

Stills and slow-mos are no good.

The point of contact here around an area where SFP should start to be considered, but without being able to see force and intensity a decision can't be given accurately as not all the facts are available.

Basically, just because there is contact on the knee / thigh area does not automatically make this a red card.

You can easily sell one with the stills and slow mo of course but I'm not prepared to nail my flag to that mast without the full speed video.
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It's the first highlight. It is possible to speed up playback on the slow-mos by more than 2x using browser developer tools (or presumably some extension would do it)

Kes said:
@CaptainsPlease ^ ^ ^

What he said ... ;)
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Stills are obviously fine for showing points of contact which is what you had queried ;)
 
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CaptainsPlease said:
Studs into knee is endangering safety.
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I haven’t seen the challenge bar images, but this mindset can be a dangerous when refereeing. Remember that studs most of the time are just moulds, so really if there’s no force in the challenge you’d cause more damage kicking someone in the knee than tapping them with plastic studs. It looks bad and untidy yes, but it’s not always endangering an opponent
 
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CaptainsPlease said:
It's the first highlight. It is possible to speed up playback on the slow-mos by more than 2x using browser developer tools (or presumably some extension would do it)


Stills are obviously fine for showing points of contact which is what you had queried ;)
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No offence mate, but that still isn't at all. You'd need a still showing the initial/original point of contact (and demonstrating excessive force at the same time) in order to support your argument. Your still looks to me like it's taken as Guimares is drawing his leg away and downwards, which is actually what happened after the initial contact with the middle of his opponent's quad/thigh.
Like you, I saw it in real time and the subsequent slow-mo's and it's a clumsy/reckless challenge with his foot too high up at worst.
I'll say it again. the force used has to be excessive for it to be red, and it wasn't. :)
 
Kes said:
No offence mate, but that still isn't at all. You'd need a still showing the initial/original point of contact (and demonstrating excessive force at the same time) in order to support your argument. Your still looks to me like it's taken as Guimares is drawing his leg away and downwards, which is actually what happened after the initial contact with the middle of his opponent's quad/thigh.
Like you, I saw it in real time and the subsequent slow-mo's and it's a clumsy/reckless challenge with his foot too high up at worst.
I'll say it again. the force used has to be excessive for it to be red, and it wasn't. :)
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Not strictly true.
If opponent safety is endangered w/o excessive force it can still meet the threshold for SFP, hence the endangering safety OR use excessive force OR brutality.
Although in this scenario force is most certainly a consideration as to if safety was endangered or not.
 
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