The Ref Stop

My First Game

mikedn said:
And why would you think that ? ......
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Because I've coached and managed teams where the behaviour of referees is vastly different in friendlies

Because I've watched local games at various levels where the behaviour of referees is vastly different in friendlies

Because I've been to FL / PL friendlies (or pre-season tournaments) and the referees are far more lenient when it comes to certain offences, especially the breaking up of a promising attach

Because I've watched International friendlies where the referees are ALWAYS more lenient than in competitive games.

And I'll openly admit that I am more lenient in friendlies, even it is to some degree subconscious. I've sent players off for DOGSO and SFP in these games, but equally I know I have let players off with a quiet word for tactical fouls that I'd be reaching for a card for in competitive games. And I suspect if they ask themselves honestly that also applies to 90%+ of all referees.
 
The Ref Stop
RustyRef said:
Because I've coached and managed teams where the behaviour of referees is vastly different in friendlies

Because I've watched local games at various levels where the behaviour of referees is vastly different in friendlies

Because I've been to FL / PL friendlies (or pre-season tournaments) and the referees are far more lenient when it comes to certain offences, especially the breaking up of a promising attach

Because I've watched International friendlies where the referees are ALWAYS more lenient than in competitive games.

And I'll openly admit that I am more lenient in friendlies, even it is to some degree subconscious. I've sent players off for DOGSO and SFP in these games, but equally I know I have let players off with a quiet word for tactical fouls that I'd be reaching for a card for in competitive games. And I suspect if they ask themselves honestly that also applies to 90%+ of all referees.
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That is sad to hear. :-( Here the Lancs FA stipulate all matches including friendlies must be sanctioned by the Lancs. FA , they also state that a referee is not insured if he/she referees a non-sanctioned match, that is number two reason why i treat all matches as equal. The number one reason, and it is probably just me but i treat all matches the same friendlies/competitive as i cannot think of one reason why i ( i stress "i") should be inconsistent in applying the laws of the game.
 
Blimey, I don't find it sad at all. At the end of the day, football is a game, played for enjoyment. In a competitive match situation, it's important that the laws are applied consistently and fairly (though with tolerance and empathy) as that is the fair thing for all the clubs in the league / cup concerned. But for me, a friendly, with nothing material riding on the outcome, is different. And in fact, sending a player off in that context for one or more 'technical' offences (DOGSO, removig a shirt in celebration etc etc) might in fact be detrimental to the whole point of the match in the first place .. normally to give players practice and conditioning for the season aheady.

However, each to their own, and I totally respect your choice to referee these games in any manner you see fit @mikedn ,
 
The other problem is the opposing team won't necessarily like it if you send a player off. In a pre-season game between two contrib teams I sent an away player off for a horrible tackle in the first half, it was right in front of the benches and the home team manager went ballistic. I knew it had to be red but I spoke to the senior assistant and he also said 100% red, so off he went.

Player has gone with no complaints, now the home team manager approaches me with the line of "let them bring a replacement on". Once I'd queried and validated that he meant an 11th player rather than just a normal sub, I said no chance at which point he kicked off massively. His argument was that this was a training game for them and they need to play against 11 not 10. Not really my problem and no way I was allowing an 11th player on, but despite being my local step 3 team, that I also used to do pitch inspections for, I haven't been asked back to do any of their friendlies since. In a competitive game they'd have been celebrating the sending off, but they didn't want it in a pre-season game.
 
RustyRef said:
The other problem is the opposing team won't necessarily like it if you send a player off. In a pre-season game between two contrib teams I sent an away player off for a horrible tackle in the first half, it was right in front of the benches and the home team manager went ballistic. I knew it had to be red but I spoke to the senior assistant and he also said 100% red, so off he went.

Player has gone with no complaints, now the home team manager approaches me with the line of "let them bring a replacement on". Once I'd queried and validated that he meant an 11th player rather than just a normal sub, I said no chance at which point he kicked off massively. His argument was that this was a training game for them and they need to play against 11 not 10. Not really my problem and no way I was allowing an 11th player on, but despite being my local step 3 team, that I also used to do pitch inspections for, I haven't been asked back to do any of their friendlies since. In a competitive game they'd have been celebrating the sending off, but they didn't want it in a pre-season game.
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What i do before k.o. of a friendly game (must be sanctioned by FA) is say to both managers " Although this is a friendly it has been sanctioned by the County FA i will caution/send off players as and when necessary all laws will apply, please tell all your players that as well" If at that point if one or both managers kick off /complain etc and refuse that advice I would then point blank refuse to referee the match.
When i receive the appointment from the fixtures secretary in my confirmation email i make the point as described above, and to date had no problem.
 
The reason managers and players kick off when referees bring the cards out in non competitive matches is because they have an expectation created by referees who believe it is acceptable to apply the LOTG less than proficiently on these occasions.

Sort of LWR on a massive scale.
 
Padfoot said:
The reason managers and players kick off when referees bring the cards out in non competitive matches is because they have an expectation created by referees who believe it is acceptable to apply the LOTG less than proficiently on these occasions.

Sort of LWR on a massive scale.
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But surely if the vast majority of referees are (for all the coherent and sensible resons quoted above) choosing to referee non competitive matches to a different tolerance level, then it is the minority who are ill advisedly sticking rigidly to the letter of the law who are in fact being LWR? :rolleyes:

To be honest the clue is in the name ..... non competitive :)
 
Oh my word Russell how can referee's sticking rigidly (as you put it) to the letter of the law be LWR ? They are doing their job properly, just because the teams are not playing for points doesn't mean a referee should circumvent the laws.....
 
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mikedn said:
Oh my word Russell how can referee's sticking rigidly (as you put it) to the letter of the law be LWR ? They are doing their job properly, just because the teams are not playing for points doesn't mean a referee should circumvent the laws.....
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So, Mike, just to stress test the strength of your feeling on this issue. Let's consider some of the 'typical' things that happen in non competitive games and whether you as the referee would be ok with them ...

1) 3 x 30 min rather than 2 x 45 min
2) Unlimited substitutions
3) Sock tape not the 'correct' colour
4) More lenient interpretation of whether or not a foul was DOGSO
5) More likely to 'have a word' than use cards in borderline cases of dissent / OFFINABUS

If you would genuinely take a 'hard line' on each of these 5 things then fair play to you. I think it's a foolish approach but entirely justifiable in Law. However, if you would in fact flex on some of them, then hopefully you can understand other referees pushing the envelope a little further? I suppose in my mind, it starts from the premise that we are there to facilitate a game that's in the best interests of players, officials and spectators alike. In competitive games, the parameters we can do this within are necessarily tight. In non competitive, our options are much broader ...
 
Russell Jones said:
So, Mike, just to stress test the strength of your feeling on this issue. Let's consider some of the 'typical' things that happen in non competitive games and whether you as the referee would be ok with them ...

1) 3 x 30 min rather than 2 x 45 min
2) Unlimited substitutions
3) Sock tape not the 'correct' colour
4) More lenient interpretation of whether or not a foul was DOGSO
5) More likely to 'have a word' than use cards in borderline cases of dissent / OFFINABUS

If you would genuinely take a 'hard line' on each of these 5 things then fair play to you. I think it's a foolish approach but entirely justifiable in Law. However, if you would in fact flex on some of them, then hopefully you can understand other referees pushing the envelope a little further? I suppose in my mind, it starts from the premise that we are there to facilitate a game that's in the best interests of players, officials and spectators alike. In competitive games, the parameters we can do this within are necessarily tight. In non competitive, our options are much broader ...
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Well, you are right it's the way i am ... consistency.. As i have stated before, i talk to the managers before the "friendly" k.o. and say that all laws apply and i will issue YC/RC as and when necessary if they have issues and refuse to accept that then i don't referee the game. Also as the game would have been sanctioned by my F.A. i would have mentioned in my acceptance email the fact i would treat the game as any other therefore if the managers made a report to the F.A. then my back is covered..... If you are prepared to be more "lenient" then fair play to you, i just hope when you referee the two teams in a competitive game at a later date (individually or against each other) the players don't take the p***.
Perhaps you say they will know they can't get away with it in a "competitive" games, i'm sure a player will try too stating "well, you didn't book me last time"
 
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All of the above is why I hate friendlies and avoid them like the plague. I have however done two lines this season, one for a level 3 and one for a 2B and they both applied the laws liberally, allowing repeat substitutions and not issuing a single card yet discussing afterwards which incident would have been a card in a "normal" game.
 
Cheshire Ref said:
All of the above is why I hate friendlies and avoid them like the plague. I have however done two lines this season, one for a level 3 and one for a 2B and they both applied the laws liberally, allowing repeat substitutions and not issuing a single card yet discussing afterwards which incident would have been a card in a "normal" game.
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:-(
 
Russell Jones said:
So, Mike, just to stress test the strength of your feeling on this issue. Let's consider some of the 'typical' things that happen in non competitive games and whether you as the referee would be ok with them ...

1) 3 x 30 min rather than 2 x 45 min
2) Unlimited substitutions
3) Sock tape not the 'correct' colour
4) More lenient interpretation of whether or not a foul was DOGSO
5) More likely to 'have a word' than use cards in borderline cases of dissent / OFFINABUS

If you would genuinely take a 'hard line' on each of these 5 things then fair play to you. I think it's a foolish approach but entirely justifiable in Law. However, if you would in fact flex on some of them, then hopefully you can understand other referees pushing the envelope a little further? I suppose in my mind, it starts from the premise that we are there to facilitate a game that's in the best interests of players, officials and spectators alike. In competitive games, the parameters we can do this within are necessarily tight. In non competitive, our options are much broader ...
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1. No problem with that, doesn't really have a massive impact on things.
2. Roll on roll off not a problem
3. Nope, not OK. Been around for a while now so no point in neglecting it.....
4 & 5. Nope not ok. Players generally aren't capable of differentiating between non competitive and competitive fixtures......and will throw it back in your face later on in the season.....Far better to maintain a consistent approach to such offences than it is to wobble your consistency up and down according to the status of the fixture.
If a players gets away with it in pre season, they will carry an expectation into the season of how they will be dealt with.

Even worse, why do you think it is acceptable to be abused pre season, but wouldn't accept it during the competitive season?
 
Padfoot said:
1. No problem with that, doesn't really have a massive impact on things.
2. Roll on roll off not a problem
3. Nope, not OK. Been around for a while now so no point in neglecting it.....
4 & 5. Nope not ok. Players generally aren't capable of differentiating between non competitive and competitive fixtures......and will throw it back in your face later on in the season.....Far better to maintain a consistent approach to such offences than it is to wobble your consistency up and down according to the status of the fixture.
If a players gets away with it in pre season, they will carry an expectation into the season of how they will be dealt with.

Even worse, why do you think it is acceptable to be abused pre season, but wouldn't accept it during the competitive season?
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I actually agree with your last sentence. But why oh why do you continually go on about players basically being so thick that they don't understand anything, like the difference between a friendly and a competitive match for instance. Of course players know the difference, not for the first time I find your complete lack of respect for players some what insulting @Padfoot
 
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Cheshire Ref said:
I actually agree with your last sentence. But why oh why do you continually go on about players basically being so thick that they don't understand anything, like the difference between a friendly and a competitive match for instance. Of course players know the difference, not for the first time I find you complete lack of respect for players some what insulting @Padfoot
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They can tell the difference, but choose to be ignorant of the fact for their convenience.
 
Cheshire Ref said:
I actually agree with your last sentence. But why oh why do you continually go on about players basically being so thick that they don't understand anything, like the difference between a friendly and a competitive match for instance. Of course players know the difference, not for the first time I find you complete lack of respect for players some what insulting @Padfoot
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mikedn said:
They can tell the difference, but choose to be ignorant of the fact for their convenience.
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But if referees stopped varying their application of the disciplinary side of the LOTG then there wouldn't be a difference to get confused over.

Whether it's a lack of basic intelligence or a wilful choice because it's 'part of the game'....players who can't or won't learn, understand and accept the LOTG which govern the sport they claim to love playing...but are happy to abuse, criticise and generally deride the one person who has actually bothered to learn the LOTG so that they can enjoy playing their sport with a modicum of protection....generally deserve the contempt.

Sadly life experience has taught me that it's far better to expect people to be idiots....that way you can be pleasantly surprised when they are not, as opposed to bitterly disappointed when you approach it the other way around.
 
for me , expectations go both ways... refs expect players to approach a friendly in a different manner and so too do players expect refs to officiate a little more leniently... this is a position abused by a minority which makes it such a difficult call.
common sense has to prevail, i think, and communication between referees and players has to be adjusted to reflect the nature of the fixture. however one thing i would 100 percent agree with @Padfoot on is dissent/abusive behaviour, theres no excuse for that and should always be treated identically in all games, whatever the age, whatever the competition.
 
Sadly life experience has taught me that it's far better to expect people to be idiots....that way you can be pleasantly surprised when they are not, as opposed to bitterly disappointed when you approach it the other way around

I wonder if you realise just how condescending and patronising that statement is. What a sad outlook on life.
 
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