RefSix

Merseyside derby

Status
Not open for further replies.

onthebrink

Well-Known Member
With offside, remember that they've changed the definition for handball now so there are parts of the body near the shoulder/upper arm area which you can now legally play the ball with (and therefore score with) so you could be offside with a body part this season which you were onside with last season.

So actually offside has gone even more against the attacking players!

I would never blame/criticise an individual VAR for an offside decision (unless they'd 100% misinterpreted something etc.)

It seems Coote didn't even check Pickford's challenge for possible SFP which is really poor. I've been impressed with Coote on the pitch since he was promoted but as a VAR not so much.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
It seems Coote didn't even check Pickford's challenge for possible SFP which is really poor. I've been impressed with Coote on the pitch since he was promoted but as a VAR not so much.

They must have checked the challenge otherwise they wouldn't have bothered checking the potential offside. And checking whether it was a penalty is surely the same as checking whether it was SFP, you are looking at exactly the same thing?
 

Jtpetherick1

Active Member
Level 4 Referee
They must have checked the challenge otherwise they wouldn't have bothered checking the potential offside. And checking whether it was a penalty is surely the same as checking whether it was SFP, you are looking at exactly the same thing?
Incorrect. PL advise their officials to check the offside first - there's no point in spending a week checking a tackle if there's an easy offside in the build-up.
 

Jtpetherick1

Active Member
Level 4 Referee
Clearly, we have a large issue with the red card or lack-of but I'd like to address something else in this thread.

And it was not offside. The line drawing was manipulated to justify the outcome.
Everyone has an opinion on VAR and everyone I think dislikes the millimetre offsides but that offside call is absolutely correct. The line as visible in both images posted above (which are the same, by the way - the line is simply widened for TV) runs up to the PL circular patch on VVD's arm. We know from the new handball law, or area, that this is a playable part of the body and thus this is a very solid offside call.
The officials very generously created a rod for their own back with David Coote (and possibly Michael Oliver) misunderstanding how VAR affects when the ball is in play/what is the phase of play so least least use that to beat them with - rather than making something else up.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Incorrect. PL advise their officials to check the offside first - there's no point in spending a week checking a tackle if there's an easy offside in the build-up.

What I really meant if they didn't have concerns about the challenge they wouldn't have checked the offside. So they must have seen it and thought there was something there. I can understand not checking for a penalty once the offside was confirmed, but that doesn't apply to potential SFP.
 

Jtpetherick1

Active Member
Level 4 Referee
What I really meant if they didn't have concerns about the challenge they wouldn't have checked the offside. So they must have seen it and thought there was something there. I can understand not checking for a penalty once the offside was confirmed, but that doesn't apply to potential SFP.

Not necessarily. 'I wonder if that's a penalty. There's no point in checking that unless I know he's onside. Oh, he's off so no need to worry about a potential penalty'. So there wouldn't be a check on the tackle - its not right but thats how it is.
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
Not necessarily. 'I wonder if that's a penalty. There's no point in checking that unless I know he's onside. Oh, he's off so no need to worry about a potential penalty'. So there wouldn't be a check on the tackle - its not right but thats how it is.

They need more than "wonder" about it being a penalty before they go through the hassle, sometimes very lengthy process, of checking for potential offside. They would have to be at the very least confident there is something there.

Bottom line is they have messed up as there is no way on earth that can't be SFP.
 

Jtpetherick1

Active Member
Level 4 Referee
They need more than "wonder" about it being a penalty before they go through the hassle, sometimes very lengthy process, of checking for potential offside. They would have to be at the very least confident there is something there.

Bottom line is they have messed up as there is no way on earth that can't be SFP.
I agree they've messed up but PGMOL have said (annoyingly, in that on-the-record nameless to broadcasters way they do) that Coote didn't check the penalty as was focussed on the offside. So I understand what happened even if I think its a shambles.
 

onthebrink

Well-Known Member
Incorrect. PL advise their officials to check the offside first - there's no point in spending a week checking a tackle if there's an easy offside in the build-up.
There've certainly been some exceptions to that - the Eric Dier penalty a few weeks ago for instance. VAR looked at the possible handball several times before proceeding to check the APP for potential offside and then recommending the review.

I guess today was a bit different in that the on-field decision was offside. I guess Oliver said 'it's offside or a penalty' because the foul was pretty clear but it certainly seems likely Coote didn't look properly at the incident in regard to potential SFP.

Ultimately it was a very poor decision and certainly goes down as a key match incident missed, and unfortunately was probably quite pivotal to the result.
 

santa sangria

RefChat Addict
Robertson YC
Pickford RC

it is criminal the officials got these wrong. Robertson is exactly that sort of player against the most exciting signing in the PL, and VVD might be out for 8 months - the league’s best player arguably - from that foul.

The offsides looked rubbish but whatever... Mane has a huge armpit apparaently... the offsides I can live with but those fouls,., heads should roll!!!
 

one

RefChat Addict
Level 7 Referee
Clearly, we have a large issue with the red card or lack-of but I'd like to address something else in this thread.


Everyone has an opinion on VAR and everyone I think dislikes the millimetre offsides but that offside call is absolutely correct. The line as visible in both images posted above (which are the same, by the way - the line is simply widened for TV) runs up to the PL circular patch on VVD's arm. We know from the new handball law, or area, that this is a playable part of the body and thus this is a very solid offside call.
The officials very generously created a rod for their own back with David Coote (and possibly Michael Oliver) misunderstanding how VAR affects when the ball is in play/what is the phase of play so least least use that to beat them with - rather than making something else up.
I am not sure what you mean by the the pictures are the same. Yes they are the same frame of the event but the line drawing that justifies offside (second pic) is vey inaccurate*. The lines that are accurate (first picture) show inline or slightly behind. I have enhanced those vertical lines to make this clearer. And I have draw a line for the handball line**. Judge for yourself if the vertical line in the second image was drawn correctly. In my view, its just above his elbow that is offside.

1602983985513.png

1602984103165.png

*Poor choice of the word manipulated in my previous post. I wasn't happy with VAR (the implementation not the protocol) destroying the game. Just get rid of those lines. The guy in the room is making a mess of them.
** I just hope they are consistent with this use of where the arm ends for defenders as well. Its the first time i have seen it used
 

RefIADad

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
All I’ll say is that in the games I do (i.e. no VAR), that challenge is a red card regardless of whether the play is offside. The only question is whether the report has SFP or VC. Absent any other info, I’d say SFP because Pickford is assuming the ball is in play.
 
Last edited:

Peter Grove

RefChat Addict
So there wouldn't be a check on the tackle - its not right but thats how it is.
That's not how it is. Anything that meets the criteria for a reviewable incident (including any potential red card) is checked by the VAR. If they don't see anything that they think is a clear and obvious error then it's what's referred to in the protocol as a silent check and is not recommended to the referee for an on-field review.
 

lincs22

Supply League Observer
Staff member
Observer/Tutor
I think the question that has not been asked - can they retrospectively give a RC to Pickford?
Not seen by the referee, not review ed by VAR; so the post match review rules could make the challenge eligible for a post match ban...
 

Eddie

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
I think the question that has not been asked - can they retrospectively give a RC to Pickford?
Not seen by the referee, not review ed by VAR; so the post match review rules could make the challenge eligible for a post match ban...
I’ve been anticipating this following the media reaction and indeed LFC’s. I think they [the PL/FA] will retrospectively ban him, I just worry the ban will exceed 3 matches.
 

onthebrink

Well-Known Member
I’ve been anticipating this following the media reaction and indeed LFC’s. I think they [the PL/FA] will retrospectively ban him, I just worry the ban will exceed 3 matches.
There wasn't a retrospective review after the Chelsea V Spurs game last season (same referee, same VAR as it happens!) I think it's unlikely here, unless the protocols have changed at all - I find it very difficult to say that none of the officials saw the incident considering they knew it was a foul and were checking the offside for a potential penalty. They might not have sufficiently checked the tackle for the red card element - but I think that's a different thing.
 

Eddie

Well-Known Member
Level 7 Referee
There wasn't a retrospective review after the Chelsea V Spurs game last season (same referee, same VAR as it happens!) I think it's unlikely here, unless the protocols have changed at all - I find it very difficult to say that none of the officials saw the incident considering they knew it was a foul and were checking the offside for a potential penalty. They might not have sufficiently checked the tackle for the red card element - but I think that's a different thing.
I can’t recall the incident you’re referring to but I doubt it got the level of coverage the Pickford challenge has and will. Liverpool demanding explanations will force the authorities into action IMO.
 

onthebrink

Well-Known Member
I can’t recall the incident you’re referring to but I doubt it got the level of coverage the Pickford challenge has and will. Liverpool demanding explanations will force the authorities into action IMO.
It got quite a lot of coverage - it was so bad the PGMO even put out a statement during the game saying the VAR had got it wrong!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top