Whilst contact on a referee isn't acceptable, it still needs to be dealt with under the laws. Was this really a violent act by Martinelli, I would say not and Sam Barrott deal with it very well. VC is defined as using excessive force or brutality, and that definition even says against a match official, so it would be a real push to say there was anything violent in his act.
Martinelli incident - Southampton vs Arsenal FA Cup QF
- Thread starter Gabriel
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This is more than minimal/negligible force and should be a sending off IMO. The fact that it wasn't done in an aggressive manner towards the referee is a mitigating factor, but there is no way that this shouldn't be a red.
Bear in mind that for those of us operating at grassroots level in England, a physical contact with a match official offence is a MINIMUM of a six month ban and £150 fine.
Bear in mind that for those of us operating at grassroots level in England, a physical contact with a match official offence is a MINIMUM of a six month ban and £150 fine.
Agree that the threshold for excessive is lower against a match official but it’s not zero. Whilst brutality isn’t required for VC, it can be a guide for what kind and severity of actions warrant the sanction. Was the push savage, ruthless or deliberately violent? No. I’ve had players push me out the way (cause my positioning is awful) and allowed play to continue with no issues. Albeit there is a difference between a gentle nudge from a (youth) player whilst the ball’s in play and Martinelli’s shove.
one
RefChat Addict
What's considered exessive force for VC is always going to be down to the interpretation of the referee. The fact that we as referees (at least some of us) accept a yellow card is ok here is reflective of the culture the football community as a whole has set. We reap what we sow. I have used this argument before. The disrespect that we see twards referees in grassroots is part of the same culture and it is never going to improve as long as we accept this sort of behaviour. This is not just about the push itself but the "get the f out of the way" attitude the came with the push and the throwing up of the arms after the yellow. He actually thought what he did was ok.
What would be the outcome if this was done in rugby or in cricket? Not that it matters because my concern is with the culture in football.
As a side note, technically this is considered common assault in Australian criminal law.
What would be the outcome if this was done in rugby or in cricket? Not that it matters because my concern is with the culture in football.
As a side note, technically this is considered common assault in Australian criminal law.
Yellow seems the sensible outcome in this particular scenario to me.
If nothing else, Martinelli is simply exhibiting the total lack of respect that he and most other players at that level have for match officials.
Pulling out a red card there would have been unexpected and brought with it the usual post-match deluge of criticism etc.
If nothing else, Martinelli is simply exhibiting the total lack of respect that he and most other players at that level have for match officials.
Pulling out a red card there would have been unexpected and brought with it the usual post-match deluge of criticism etc.
I realize I'd be wrong here, but I'm betting that if this happened to me, I'd either not notice what had occurred or I'd be opting for some sort of educational session with the aggressor and his Captain
Yes, yes, I know that's wrong for everyone else out there, but I'm just inclined to guess that the player's action wouldn't register with me in terms of aggression or threat. It depends on context and my prior relationship with the player etc... I'm not being controversial or provocative, I just have a tendency to be too laid back that the incident would probably only register with me after the event, given this was just a slight push and so on.
Perhaps Barratt only thought about it in more detail after the game too
Yes, yes, I know that's wrong for everyone else out there, but I'm just inclined to guess that the player's action wouldn't register with me in terms of aggression or threat. It depends on context and my prior relationship with the player etc... I'm not being controversial or provocative, I just have a tendency to be too laid back that the incident would probably only register with me after the event, given this was just a slight push and so on.
Perhaps Barratt only thought about it in more detail after the game too
one
RefChat Addict
I'd be interested in the thought process / logic behind this. A genuine question.
I would guess because there is nothing in the laws that upgrades VC based on it being on a match official rather than a player? There is no way on earth this could be defined as VC if player on player contact, it would be a stretch for it even to be a caution. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a red card, but it is a real stretch to say the law supports it as such.
I can accept a yellow here but then Fulham can argue why did Mitrovic get a red card and a 8 game ban for giving the ref a small nudge on the arm, it clearly just down to the interpretation of the ref on the day but maybe the law should be changed that any contact on a referee that is a deliberate nudge/push should be a red card then there can't be any room for interpretation.
Of course probably a large part of Mitrovic's 8 game ban was no doubt in response to the red card where he virtually touched heads with Chris Kavanagh but the point does still stand somewhat in my view.
Of course probably a large part of Mitrovic's 8 game ban was no doubt in response to the red card where he virtually touched heads with Chris Kavanagh but the point does still stand somewhat in my view.
one
RefChat Addict
As I said earliers much of this is based on interpretations. I would not argue if we said yellow can be supported in law. But I would argue against saying this is a yellow in law.
Either way I would say a red is even more supportable in law as per below.
To justify this in law we have to use law definitions. "Was it a violent act" is not the right question to ask as it refers to common definitions. "Was it violent conduct" is the right question and you have stated the law definition. Now adding the law definition for "excessive force" completes this. In lotg excessive force is using more force/energy than is necessary. What force is necessary to push the referee out of the way? None
So yes that was a real push (unintended pun on your part I guess
), no it probably wasn't a violent act, but yes it was violent conduct according to the laws of the game.
It wasn't "violent" and it wasn't an act of dissent or aggression. It was nonchalant and just disrespectful.
Expectation is one thing and we can all be experts and critics after the fact but my guess is that nobody in that stadium (player, coach, fan or otherwise) would have "expected" a red card at that moment.
If a player pushes me on a Saturday he is getting a red card, violent or not.
Context is key of corse - this looked to me as a ‘get out the way I want to get on with it’ shove rather than a ‘let’s have a fight’ shove. Does that matter? I’m not so sure.
As a caveat, I do think SB dealt with it very calmly and smoothly - I just worry for the precedent this sets for GR.
Context is key of corse - this looked to me as a ‘get out the way I want to get on with it’ shove rather than a ‘let’s have a fight’ shove. Does that matter? I’m not so sure.
As a caveat, I do think SB dealt with it very calmly and smoothly - I just worry for the precedent this sets for GR.
LothianRef
Member
If a player tries to push an opponent out of the way how much force is necessary? I’d say none, yet nobody would be expecting a red card if it was player on player. I think the threshold for what’s “acceptable” for pushing match officials should be lower than players, but the LOTG don’t currently allow for that.
Surely it is excessive force, because the required amount of force required in terms of pushing a match official, is absolutely none at all?
How many people if pushed by a player on a Saturday / Sunday would go yellow card and how many would go red?
I agree about the laws but let’s just apply some common sense here. I’m a teacher, if a student pushes another student and a student pushes a teacher the outcomes are, quite rightly, very different.
I agree about the laws but let’s just apply some common sense here. I’m a teacher, if a student pushes another student and a student pushes a teacher the outcomes are, quite rightly, very different.