Managing subs - 7-6 / 6-5

[Refollie]

I’m informally mentoring a 6-5 promotion candidate who has been marked down on a recent match day coach visit for not following the correct substitution procedure as he wasn’t making subs enter at the halfway line and wasn’t waiting for players to leave the FOP before allowing subs on.

Fair enough really, rules are rules, but it was a division 8 Sunday league game and it did leave me wondering how you would go about managing this at that level… any advice I can share? The MDC in question only advised that he should have cautioned the first sub to come on for entering the field without permission, then no one else would have followed suit. Sounds like match control mayhem to me.

I’m sure I’ll be crucified by some, but I have a far more laid back approach (essentially the same as him) at low level grassroots games, and then follow the correct procedure higher up the chain where it is expected.

 

[PP62]

I’ve just written a formal report for a 7-6 candidate where this has cropped up. I agree that on low level Sunday OA games we can relax a little with substitutions but when you know there’s a match day coach watching you should follow the procedure properly at least a couple of times to demonstrate that you know what to do. One sub was waved on with socks around his ankles and when I spoke to the ref after the game I was told ”he was wearing micro shin pads”. This may have been the case; I don’t believe he was but the ref could not be sure.

 

[Refollie]

I should add that I thought it would’ve been better for promotion candidates to be watched on Saturday games or at least higher level Sunday league, but I guess you have to take what you can get when MDCs are hard to find

 

[Runner Ref]

Don’t think I ever managed a sub on the half way line unless I had NAR or I was a NAR.

This sounds to me like a specific MDC having a gripe with it. Part of the trick is to find out what the MDC/observer like and what they don’t like. Then try to tailor yourself to that. I’m not saying completely reinvent your game, but if you know they’re picky on something like this, enforce it.

We used to have a chap who was adamant you needed to stand on the goal line at corners. So whenever anyone had it, they’d stand on the goal line for a few each game. But this was when they were observers at 7-6-5 rather than MDC

 

[PP62]

Don’t think I ever managed a sub on the half way line unless I had NAR or I was a NAR.

This sounds to me like a specific MDC having a gripe with it. Part of the trick is to find out what the MDC/observer like and what they don’t like. Then try to tailor yourself to that. I’m not saying completely reinvent your game, but if you know they’re picky on something like this, enforce it.

We used to have a chap who was adamant you needed to stand on the goal line at corners. So whenever anyone had it, they’d stand on the goal line for a few each game. But this was when they were observers at 7-6-5 rather than MDC

I’m not fussy about it being on the halfway line either but I think candidates should show MDC they know the procedure.

 

[Runner Ref]

I’m not fussy about it being on the halfway line either but I think candidates should show MDC they know the procedure.

Im sure it’ll vary around the country, but I can guarantee you I have never seen a referee manage a sub at the halfway line when on their own. Neither as a player or a referee.

But I also never saw a jewellery or boot inspection until I first ran the line on what was contrib.

 

[JamesL]

If sub procedure was what he got his focus for development in then sounds like he had a reasonably good game otherwise?

Whilst important we know how (and even when) to do it right as far as impact on a game goes this is a lower down the list item.

 

[Refollie]

Has anyone seen a Sunday league ref force players to wait for their team mate to leave before coming on? I haven’t but I think it would be doable

 

[Refollie]

If sub procedure was what he got his focus for development in then sounds like he had a reasonably good game otherwise?

Whilst important we know how (and even when) to do it right as far as impact on a game goes this is a lower down the list item.

Yeah he had a good game from what the report says, he’ll get the 5 once he gets the middles and lines in

 

[Refollie]

This sounds to me like a specific MDC having a gripe with it. Part of the trick is to find out what the MDC/observer like and what they don’t like. Then try to tailor yourself to that. I’m not saying completely reinvent your game, but if you know they’re picky on something like this, enforce it.

Would you ask them before the match with an MDC - what they are into/want to see? Observers have reputations for various things but not sure the same applies for MDCs as it’s a bit more casual

 

[Runner Ref]

Would you ask them before the match with an MDC - what they are into/want to see? Observers have reputations for various things but not sure the same applies for MDCs as it’s a bit more casual

I’d ask around people who would have had them beforehand if they had any quirks. Whether I’d them them directly, no. I’d maybe hint towards things, but wouldn’t directly ask.

 

[RustyRef]

I’m informally mentoring a 6-5 promotion candidate who has been marked down on a recent match day coach visit for not following the correct substitution procedure as he wasn’t making subs enter at the halfway line and wasn’t waiting for players to leave the FOP before allowing subs on.

Fair enough really, rules are rules, but it was a division 8 Sunday league game and it did leave me wondering how you would go about managing this at that level… any advice I can share? The MDC in question only advised that he should have cautioned the first sub to come on for entering the field without permission, then no one else would have followed suit. Sounds like match control mayhem to me.

I’m sure I’ll be crucified by some, but I have a far more laid back approach (essentially the same as him) at low level grassroots games, and then follow the correct procedure higher up the chain where it is expected.

How was he marked down when there are no marks? At 7 to 6 and 6 to 5 there are no marks whatsoever, whether in individual competencies or overall. I'm guessing you mean he got focus for development for managing substitutions? That could be that he had a "fussy" MDC, it could mean the MDC had very little advice to give him so went for an obvious and easy one, or it could mean he was being a bit sloppy.

When I'm doing the MDC role I just want to see that they understand the law. I'm not expecting them to go the the touchline ever time a change is being made, but I do expect them to control the situation. Make sure it is at a stoppage in play, make sure the player going off is at least close to being off the pitch before the replacement comes on, generally just have some control over it. I've observed and coached on some games where the referee took pretty much no interest in it, responded to the shout and waved the new player on without really understanding what was happening, and that went down as development focus.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

My promotion was nearly derailed in part because an observer expected me to run to halfway and see every rolling sub on and off, with CARs in place.

Players still left and came on around the same time and I did check equipment but some of them weren't on half way and I got a 6.5 lol

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

My promotion was nearly derailed in part because an observer expected me to run to halfway and see every rolling sub on and off, with CARs in place.

Players still left and came on around the same time and I did check equipment but some of them weren't on half way and I got a 6.5 lol

Promotion to which level? Observer or MDC reporting?

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

Promotion to which level? Observer or MDC reporting?

Observation for 3W

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Observation for 3W

At that level, I would expect the referee to be actively involved; with players returning after being substituted earlier, not important to go through the full process, but subs coming on for the first time should be checked.
As mentioned in an exchange on here a couple of weeks ago it is important to know which players take part (may make them ineligible for other clubs in a competition or they may/may not be able to play in later rounds of a competition.

 

[RefJef]

It was bought up in one of my Level 7 to 6 observations (and this would have been an observation, not match day coaching- a few years back)

Saturday afternoon game, CARs not NARs. First round of substitutions went well, but in a subsequent set, ball out of play, manager calls, “subs please ref”. I acknowledge the call, and before I can do anything else, the oncoming sub, keen an eager to get his 15 mins of game time, has raced onto the pitch. I did wait until the off going player had left the pitch, but didn’t YC the oncoming player.

The observer raised it with me (in a very good way, I should add) - he said my control of the first substitutions had been good, but what happened with this substitution? We discussed - and he accepted - the difficulties faced by a ref in the middle with no NARs, but wrote it up as a development point, fair enough. I am now more pro-active in keeping the on coming player off the pitch until the leaving player has left - often by just body language, holding up my arm with an open palm in a sort of stop/wait signal to the oncoming player, sometimes using my voice as well to ask him to wait, and if they do race on early I may well have words for next time, but won’t YC them. It didn’t stop me getting promoted but probably improved my game a little, so all good.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

At that level, I would expect the referee to be actively involved; with players returning after being substituted earlier, not important to go through the full process, but subs coming on for the first time should be checked.
As mentioned in an exchange on here a couple of weeks ago it is important to know which players take part (may make them ineligible for other clubs in a competition or they may/may not be able to play in later rounds of a competition.

For sure, but when I'm only being offered obs on Sunday men's games with no structured touchline infrastructure... hinders match control a tad because you look like a jobsworth and they don't give a monkeys

 

[cdsman]

It was bought up in one of my Level 7 to 6 observations (and this would have been an observation, not match day coaching- a few years back)

Saturday afternoon game, CARs not NARs. First round of substitutions went well, but in a subsequent set, ball out of play, manager calls, “subs please ref”. I acknowledge the call, and before I can do anything else, the oncoming sub, keen an eager to get his 15 mins of game time, has raced onto the pitch. I did wait until the off going player had left the pitch, but didn’t YC the oncoming player.

The observer raised it with me (in a very good way, I should add) - he said my control of the first substitutions had been good, but what happened with this substitution? We discussed - and he accepted - the difficulties faced by a ref in the middle with no NARs, but wrote it up as a development point, fair enough. I am now more pro-active in keeping the on coming player off the pitch until the leaving player has left - often by just body language, holding up my arm with an open palm in a sort of stop/wait signal to the oncoming player, sometimes using my voice as well to ask him to wait, and if they do race on early I may well have words for next time, but won’t YC them. It didn’t stop me getting promoted but probably improved my game a little, so all good.

In this sort of situation, would you mention to the clubs beforehand that you're being 'observed' - and set the expectation with them that substitutions need to be done 'by the book'? Or do you think this would cause other problems during the match - with comments like "you're only booking him cos you're being observed"?

 

[Runner Ref]

In this sort of situation, would you mention to the clubs beforehand that you're being 'observed' - and set the expectation with them that substitutions need to be done 'by the book'? Or do you think this would cause other problems during the match - with comments like "you're only booking him cos you're being observed"?

I personally wouldn’t tell clubs you’re being observed for the very exact reason you mention at the end.

If anything, clubs will try and make things harder for you. Plus you’re basically telling the clubs that you referee differently when being observed. Technically you shouldn’t, but we’ve all been guilty of that. But the clubs don’t need to know

And in reality, they will figure out you’re being observed when they see someone stood there taking notes