Man Utd v Arsenal

[spuddy1878]

Less said about the officials decision for Arsenal equaliser the better, what I don’t get is why did he flag when he did.

I was under the impression they flag only if 100% sure or leave it to VAR, not only is he 3 yards on side but surely he should have waited until the game was dead.

 

[Ryanj91]

 

[socal lurker]

Less said about the officials decision for Arsenal equaliser the better, what I don’t get is why did he flag when he did.

I was under the impression they flag only if 100% sure or leave it to VAR, not only is he 3 yards on side but surely he should have waited until the game was dead.

There is a grand myth out there that Rs or ARs are to "leave it to VAR." That's a myth. (The sole exception to that, I believe, is the WC handling of GK movement on PKs, which was left to VAR.)

For OS decisions, the AR is supposed to make exactly the same call that he would have made in the absence of VAR. The change for the AR is timing--if it is a close call and a scoring opportunity, they are supposed to delay the call. Key word is delay--they don't leave it to the VAR, they delay the call so that if a goal score and VAR suggests the call should be reversed, it's possible because the whistle never blew.

 

[santa sangria]

I think he's distracted and not looking along the line... and then guesses... it's a bad mistake...

Was it noisy?

 

[one]

Same issue in Lei vs New game. Vardy in OSP chases a ball but doesn't interfere, AR stops and flags, Vardy pulls out and another attacker runs in and almost score with AR well out of place. Not acceptable at this level with this frequency.

 

[onthebrink]

My understanding is that assistant referees in PL are told to flag as normal and referee should delay whistle if a promising opportunity.

In contrast, they are told to delay flag if there is a promising opportunity in Champions League, etc.

I think that I prefer the Premier League's approach or at least I feel that the delay tactic is often overused in UEFA/FIFA matches when the offside is obvious or there isn't really a promising attack.

 

[RobOda]

Was a pretty bad call, I got it right on the first viewing.

Annoyed me as I was pretty chuffed it was ruled out.

 

[socal lurker]

My understanding is that assistant referees in PL are told to flag as normal and referee should delay whistle if a promising opportunity.

In contrast, they are told to delay flag if there is a promising opportunity in Champions League, etc.

I think that I prefer the Premier League's approach or at least I feel that the delay tactic is often overused in UEFA/FIFA matches when the offside is obvious or there isn't really a promising attack.

The problem with the flag and let the R delay model is that it means the AR is guaranteed to be out of position for the rest of the sequence. The AR delay model keeps the AR in position.

 

[Big Cat]

There is a grand myth out there that Rs or ARs are to "leave it to VAR." That's a myth. (The sole exception to that, I believe, is the WC handling of GK movement on PKs, which was left to VAR.)

For OS decisions, the AR is supposed to make exactly the same call that he would have made in the absence of VAR. The change for the AR is timing--if it is a close call and a scoring opportunity, they are supposed to delay the call. Key word is delay--they don't leave it to the VAR, they delay the call so that if a goal score and VAR suggests the call should be reversed, it's possible because the whistle never blew.

Semantics for me (and most everyone else)

 

[onthebrink]

The problem with the flag and let the R delay model is that it means the AR is guaranteed to be out of position for the rest of the sequence. The AR delay model keeps the AR in position.

I don't really see that as a problem because the initial decision is offside so the only way that decision might be changed is if there is a penalty/red card etc. in which case VAR looks at it anyway.

There are sometimes instances where there are three or four decisions to be made in quick succession. If the assistant thinks the first phase is offside then I don't think it's reasonable/necessary to expect him to then say 'And if it wasn't then I thought the second was onside, the third was offside, there might have been a handball and then I think it had gone out for a goal kick'.

 

[Tealeaf]

In the still where’s the ball? Serious point. I can’t see it at all, so guessing it’s Utd player in bottom left hand corner.

 

[socal lurker]

Semantics for me (and most everyone else)

Perhaps you should speak for yourself rather than assuming you know what everyone else thinks. It is not at all semantics, it s a fundamental distinction in the directions that ARs receive and how they are expected to act on the field. ARs are required to make decisions, and they are evaluated on the decisions they make on the field

 

[socal lurker]

I don't really see that as a problem because the initial decision is offside so the only way that decision might be changed is if there is a penalty/red card etc. in which case VAR looks at it anyway.

There are sometimes instances where there are three or four decisions to be made in quick succession. If the assistant thinks the first phase is offside then I don't think it's reasonable/necessary to expect him to then say 'And if it wasn't then I thought the second was onside, the third was offside, there might have been a handball and then I think it had gone out for a goal kick'.

We're just going to disagree here. (Though I will pompously note that everywhere in the world except England agrees with me. ) It is true that it is unlikely the AR will have another important call to make, but we make it to the goal line to be there in case there is an important call to make. The same should be true here.

 

[MattTheRef]

In the still where’s the ball? Serious point. I can’t see it at all, so guessing it’s Utd player in bottom left hand corner.

Arsenal player in the middle of the picture. Next to United no2.

 

[Big Cat]

Perhaps you should speak for yourself rather than assuming you know what everyone else thinks. It is not at all semantics, it s a fundamental distinction in the directions that ARs receive and how they are expected to act on the field. ARs are required to make decisions, and they are evaluated on the decisions they make on the field

However its dressed up, the on-field decision for offside is now immaterial. Late/delayed/no flag, it makes no odds. The only flag that might have any consequence, is a wrong flag
If I'd spent half my life attaining SG1 status as an AR, I'd be feeling rather ill

 

[onthebrink]

However its dressed up, the on-field decision for offside is now immaterial. Late/delayed/no flag, it makes no odds. The only flag that might have any consequence, is a wrong flag
If I'd spent half my life attaining SG1 status as an AR, I'd be feeling rather ill

If I Scott Ledger last night I'd much rather the decision be instantly corrected and the goal allowed to stand than an incorrect offside call have a potentially significant impact upon the game.

Assistants are still tasked with making decisions but if it's in one of the major areas then they're just going to get instant feedback if it's wrong.

 

[Big Cat]

If I Scott Ledger last night I'd much rather the decision be instantly corrected and the goal allowed to stand than an incorrect offside call have a potentially significant impact upon the game.

Assistants are still tasked with making decisions but if it's in one of the major areas then they're just going to get instant feedback if it's wrong.

Mr Ledger got lucky in that most flags would stop the game. Indeed, KF may have blown the whistle before the ball crossed the line, but that's another matter. Ledger will be humiliated by this mistake regardless, doubly so because that flag should not have been raised for multiple reasons.
The core skill of an AR is to judge KMI offsides. The VAR is now the sole arbiter of offside when a goal is scored, unless the AR is flagging when they absolutely shouldn't be (because that is likely to stop the game before the ball crosses the line)

 

[Tino Best]

A mistake was made and VAR corrected that mistake. People are still human and as previously stated our mistakes aren't normally shown on TV.

 

[socal lurker]

However its dressed up, the on-field decision for offside is now immaterial. Late/delayed/no flag, it makes no odds. The only flag that might have any consequence, is a wrong flag
If I'd spent half my life attaining SG1 status as an AR, I'd be feeling rather ill

To a degree. But the call on the field stands if the VAR can't conclusively reach a different result. (Though we seem to think we can reach conclusive results on OS that are probably beyond the precision of the VR tools, but that's another rabbit hole.)

It would be interesting to have conversations with some top ARs (including from places that have differed in how they implement VR). Certainly their import on OS calls has been diminished, but I"m curious the extent to which they see their role as diminished, or see their role as reshaped into a focus on other areas where they assist the referee. Modern ARs are not the linesmen of yesteryear who only worry about OS and out of play--they give a lot more assistance than we ever know as they are providing input to the R over the headset.

 

[onthebrink]

Mr Ledger got lucky in that most flags would stop the game. Indeed, KF may have blown the whistle before the ball crossed the line, but that's another matter. Ledger will be humiliated by this mistake regardless, doubly so because that flag should not have been raised for multiple reasons.
The core skill of an AR is to judge KMI offsides. The VAR is now the sole arbiter of offside when a goal is scored, unless the AR is flagging when they absolutely shouldn't be (because that is likely to stop the game before the ball crosses the line)

Friend would have been in the wrong if he'd blown the whistle because there was clearly an imminent chance of a goal being scored.

Assistants still make decisions but they have VAR to ensure they've got it correct. It's in no one's interests for goals such as last night's to be disallowed because the assistant has judged a KMI offside wrong.

As mentioned, assistants are increasingly helping out in other areas too with the communication over the headsets so I wouldn't have thought they feel too redundant.