Making decisions as an AR

[Eddie]

Had a scenario last week (friendly academy game), I was AR.

Ball played through into penalty area over the far side from me, referee in a really good position, attacker beats defender to it, defender charges him in the back and sends him flying.

From my angle, penalty. Referee doesn’t give it.

I was tempted to start flagging but then consider the ref’s position (approx 10m from challenge with what seemed like a good angle) and come to the conclusion he had a better view the call lies with him. He wasn’t close enough for a ‘look-in’.

I asked him about it post-game and he said it just looked like a collision to him.

What’s the best approach in this situation? If it was the near side to me I would’ve flagged all day, but again weighing up our respective positions I decided the ref had a better view.

I’ve been assistant for a level 3 before and one piece of advice he gave us was not to get involved too much.

I guess my question is, how involved should I get in the overall decision making? As though I’m reffing it myself or only flag for fouls that I’m sure I have a better view of and are in ‘my area’.

 

[Justylove]

On penalties my pre match to AR's is as follows:

There are two scenarios

First one I'm in a position to make a decision, whether that be to give a penalty or not give one. In this instance I don't need any input from you thank you. Only time I want you to get involved is if I am completely incorrect in law, then buzz me repeatedly.

Second one, I'm looking at you and will actively be inviting your input. In this situation I want a decision from you, standing there and doing nothing is the worst thing you can do.

 

[RustyRef]

Should really all be covered in the referee's pre-match instructions, but they are never going to say that they want a penalty flag when play is on the far side to the assistant. We will have all been on games on the line where we've seen what we thought was a penalty but can't do anything as it happened well outside our credible area. I know some referees that use buzzer flags who ask assistants to discreetly buzz if they think there is a penalty but not to raise the flag, and obviously with comms it is much easier.

 

[Eddie]

Thanks lads, that’s helpful. We didn’t have a pre-match on this occasion but it’s something I’ll listen out for on the next one

 

[wazztie16]

I wouldn't flag, and any questions from anyone, you can't give a credible decision from where you are (distance etc) and the ref is closer, sell it.

Tends to work for me.

Edit - if its something blatant like a trip way off the ball which the ref has somehow missed but everyone else has seen, then I'd definitely be flagging and alerting the ref.

 

[Eddie]

I wouldn't flag, and any questions from anyone, you can't give a credible decision from where you are (distance etc) and the ref is closer, sell it.

Tends to work for me.

Yeah I was mentally preparing to give that response to the coaches (they were on my line), but they were too busy laughing!

 

[socal lurker]

As others have said, this is a significant issue to be addressed in pregame--what help does the R want on fouls? In the absence of a pregame, if the R has a really good position and doesn't make the "help me" look and it's not near you, I think you did the right thing not to flag--unless there was something unique in your angle that was very clear and the R couldn't see.

 

[Eddie]

As others have said, this is a significant issue to be addressed in pregame--what help does the R want on fouls? In the absence of a pregame, if the R has a really good position and doesn't make the "help me" look and it's not near you, I think you did the right thing not to flag--unless there was something unique in your angle that was very clear and the R couldn't see.

I had no reason to believe he hadn’t seen what I’d seen. I was surprised he didn’t give it but in a game that finished 10-3 it didn’t make much of a difference in the end!

 

[RustyRef]

I had no reason to believe he hadn’t seen what I’d seen. I was surprised he didn’t give it but in a game that finished 10-3 it didn’t make much of a difference in the end!

Also remember that he had a very different angle to you. We will all have watched incidents on TV where we initially make a decision only to completely change that when you see it from an alternative angle.

 

[jofusref]

remember if the ref doesnt cover a scenario you are worried about ask them

 

[Martiju]

On penalties my pre match to AR's is as follows:

There are two scenarios

First one I'm in a position to make a decision, whether that be to give a penalty or not give one. In this instance I don't need any input from you thank you. Only time I want you to get involved is if I am completely incorrect in law, then buzz me repeatedly.

Second one, I'm looking at you and will actively be inviting your input. In this situation I want a decision from you, standing there and doing nothing is the worst thing you can do.

So important that you repeat it, right?

 

[one]

On penalties my pre match to AR's is as follows:

There are two scenarios

First one I'm in a position to make a decision, whether that be to give a penalty or not give one. In this instance I don't need any input from you thank you. Only time I want you to get involved is if I am completely incorrect in law, then buzz me repeatedly.

Second one, I'm looking at you and will actively be inviting your input. In this situation I want a decision from you, standing there and doing nothing is the worst thing you can do.

I am your AR. So after your pre-match you hopefully say "any questions?". Me, for penalty, you missed the scenario when I think you are not in a position to make the correct decision, I am reasonably sure you have not made the correct decision and you are not looking at me. What do I do?

 

[Justylove]

I am your AR. So after your pre-match you hopefully say "any questions?". Me, for penalty, you missed the scenario when I think you are not in a position to make the correct decision, I am reasonably sure you have not made the correct decision and you are not looking at me. What do I do?

Always ask for any questions at end of pre match.

In the case where YOU think I'm not in a credible position to give the penalty and are "reasonably sure" I've got it wrong, I'd be expecting you to keep your flag down and let me live or die by my decision. I'll know myself whether I need any help and my point is that that decision is MINE to make as the referee as to whether I want your input and not yours to make as the AR in this type of circumstance.

 

[Justylove]

Always ask for any questions at end of pre match.

In the case where YOU think I'm not in a credible position to give the penalty and are "reasonably sure" I've got it wrong, I'd be expecting you to keep your flag down and let me live or die by my decision. I'll know myself whether I need any help and my point is that that decision is MINE to make as the referee as to whether I want your input and not yours to make as the AR in this type of circumstance.

I'm going to add a bit more context here as well.

We operate with a large pool of AR's of all shapes, sizes, experience and ability. I've had AR's on my line that I know well and trust implicitly, likewise I've had ones that I don't know from Adam. I have also had one this season that told me he'd only ever run the line in one game prior to mine and he was very nervous. He was in his second season as a referee and had done around 25 games total in his career.

Most of the AR's I have, I've never seen referee, I don't know how good or bad their foul recognition is, nor their grasp of referee positioning, especially with Neutral Assistants.

So for me, where I'm promoted, demoted or staying where I am based on a merit table, I'm looking to keep as much as possible inside my own control. Yes there are times for a KMI where I need the support of that AR who is doing only the second line of his life, but that's got to be based on me actively wanting that help, as opposed to him unilaterally offering it.

For an AR stepping in and giving a decision on a KMI when I don't expect or need it, the impact that could have for me could, in a tight marking season, actually have an influence as to what level I'm operating at the following season.

There's no Comms systems at my level, so the only way the AR can communicate with me is through their flags. At higher levels, where you are out with a smaller pool of AR's that you know and trust and with Comms kits, it's easier for the AR to say "Justyn, you've missed an offence on your blind side, it's a penalty"

 

[RustyRef]

Always worries me when I hear referees completely ruling out their ARs from coming in for penalties when they haven't been invited it. There are a few scenarios where that can land you in trouble, including ...

- You give a penalty for handling but the ball actually hits an attacker's arm. If your assistant is able to get you out of the mire here would you not want him to? Incorrectly giving a handball doesn't tick the "incorrect in law" override box.

- Conversely, you miss a blatant handball or foul because you are blocked off and couldn't possibly see it, surely you would want help?

- There's a long ball and you are caught miles down field, there's every chance in that situation that the person with the most credible view is the AR.

Completely agree with the comments about the standard of assistants at L4, it is very variable and I can remember that well back to my days at that level. But sometimes even a pretty rubbish AR can bail you out of a mess, you just need the messaging and instructions to be such that they have minimal opportunity to get you into a mess.

 

[socal lurker]

I very much vary how much help I want from ARs based on who they are. When I'm doing a B19 game, I often have ARs that I know and are experienced, some more than I am--most of those folks I'm going to trust that they are only going to flag in the PA where they in fact have a better view than I do, are positive it was a foul, and are confident that calling it would be consistent with what I've been calling in the game I want that help from them. When I do a 14U or younger game, I typically have relative novices (most of whom wouldn't have the courage to flag for a PK if I let them)--really not looking for their help.

 

[Justylove]

Always worries me when I hear referees completely ruling out their ARs from coming in for penalties when they haven't been invited it. There are a few scenarios where that can land you in trouble, including ...

- You give a penalty for handling but the ball actually hits an attacker's arm. If your assistant is able to get you out of the mire here would you not want him to? Incorrectly giving a handball doesn't tick the "incorrect in law" override box.

- Conversely, you miss a blatant handball or foul because you are blocked off and couldn't possibly see it, surely you would want help?

- There's a long ball and you are caught miles down field, there's every chance in that situation that the person with the most credible view is the AR.

Completely agree with the comments about the standard of assistants at L4, it is very variable and I can remember that well back to my days at that level. But sometimes even a pretty rubbish AR can bail you out of a mess, you just need the messaging and instructions to be such that they have minimal opportunity to get you into a mess.

My response

1) Thats incorrect in law for me as it's a facial offence and I'm clear as part of my pre match on penalties

2) blatent handball that I've missed, that's where I'm looking over to the assistant for help and support based on angle and credibility

3) Again that's where I'm then looking to the AR for help and explicitly state that I want them to step in.


What I don't want is my assistant coming in and making a decision that is opposite to mine when I'm happy with my view to make the decision as I've seen first hand (from the other end) how that can kill a referees match control and credibility

 

[RustyRef]

My response

1) Thats incorrect in law for me as it's a facial offence and I'm clear as part of my pre match on penalties

2) blatent handball that I've missed, that's where I'm looking over to the assistant for help and support based on angle and credibility

3) Again that's where I'm then looking to the AR for help and explicitly state that I want them to step in.


What I don't want is my assistant coming in and making a decision that is opposite to mine when I'm happy with my view to make the decision as I've seen first hand (from the other end) how that can kill a referees match control and credibility

You might want to rename incorrect in law in your pre-match to obviously wrong. If someone said incorrect in law to me I would take that as meaning that the referee had seen the situation but then applied law incorrectly, for example got encroachment on a penalty wrong.

Problem is for 2 is that if you can't see it you don't know you've got it wrong. Obviously player reaction might help, but lets face it everyone appeals for everything these days, especially when it comes to handling.

 

[one]

I'm going to add a bit more context here as well.

We operate with a large pool of AR's of all shapes, sizes, experience and ability. I've had AR's on my line that I know well and trust implicitly, likewise I've had ones that I don't know from Adam. I have also had one this season that told me he'd only ever run the line in one game prior to mine and he was very nervous. He was in his second season as a referee and had done around 25 games total in his career.

Most of the AR's I have, I've never seen referee, I don't know how good or bad their foul recognition is, nor their grasp of referee positioning, especially with Neutral Assistants.

So for me, where I'm promoted, demoted or staying where I am based on a merit table, I'm looking to keep as much as possible inside my own control. Yes there are times for a KMI where I need the support of that AR who is doing only the second line of his life, but that's got to be based on me actively wanting that help, as opposed to him unilaterally offering it.

For an AR stepping in and giving a decision on a KMI when I don't expect or need it, the impact that could have for me could, in a tight marking season, actually have an influence as to what level I'm operating at the following season.

There's no Comms systems at my level, so the only way the AR can communicate with me is through their flags. At higher levels, where you are out with a smaller pool of AR's that you know and trust and with Comms kits, it's easier for the AR to say "Justyn, you've missed an offence on your blind side, it's a penalty"

I was okay with your first response . I asked the question to provoke considerations on if you may want to do things differently and if in your view that would be an improvement.

As you quite rightly pointed out, one size does not fit all for all AR's. If you trust the foul recognition of the AR, him stepping in "when you don't need it" could mean promotion in a tight marking season.

Have you considered "If out of those who have seen the incident, I am the only one who thinks it's not a pen, and everyone else including you thinks its a definite pen then i want you to flag it. I can sell that very easily. Otherwise communicate through eye contact" This is more or less my instructions. It has a bit more details and varies a bit depending on the AR's experience. It has saved my a55 on a couple of occasions and no problems from it so far.

 

[Justylove]

You might want to rename incorrect in law in your pre-match to obviously wrong. If someone said incorrect in law to me I would take that as meaning that the referee had seen the situation but then applied law incorrectly, for example got encroachment on a penalty wrong.

Problem is for 2 is that if you can't see it you don't know you've got it wrong. Obviously player reaction might help, but lets face it everyone appeals for everything these days, especially when it comes to handling.

Cheers @Rusty - taken on board and will apply in my future pre-match! #alwayslearning