Level 4 - What Happens?

[RefereeX]

Around my area, the referees in my former pool would do United Counties League Prem and Div One (Step 5 & 6), yet the Spartan South Mids which also stretches up to my area are only operating L4s on their Premier Division, so L5s in the are can referee step 6 matches in the Spartan. (Usually 5-4 candidates or formerly higher level referees).

I believe this is set to change next season though and will be standardised that L4s will cover all step 5 & 6 matches, which had divided opinions, but will at least mean more games for L4s theoretically.

Funnily enough, as a level 4 from start of season up until 1st Feb I did 7 step 5/6 middles (6 league, 1 FA Vase). Assuming my remaining appointments are on, I will have also done 7 middles from 1st Feb to end of April as a L3. (Sorry JamesL if you see this, I'm not trying to rub it in, but I guess being a relatively central L3 helps)

 

[JamesL]

Around my area, the referees in my former pool would do United Counties League Prem and Div One (Step 5 & 6), yet the Spartan South Mids which also stretches up to my area are only operating L4s on their Premier Division, so L5s in the are can referee step 6 matches in the Spartan. (Usually 5-4 candidates or formerly higher level referees).

I believe this is set to change next season though and will be standardised that L4s will cover all step 5 & 6 matches, which had divided opinions, but will at least mean more games for L4s theoretically.

Funnily enough, as a level 4 from start of season up until 1st Feb I did step 5/6 middles (6 league, 1 FA Vase). Assuming my remaining appointments are on, I will have also done 7 middles from 1st Feb to end of April as a L3. (Sorry JamesL if you see this, I'm not trying to rub it in, but I guess being a relatively central L3 helps)

I've done 7 middles all season. I think I have been appointed to 13 with 1 outstanding. So 5 postponed so far! Being central obviously does help.

 

[Gabriel]

I've done 7 middles all season. I think I have been appointed to 13 with 1 outstanding. So 5 postponed so far! Being central obviously does help.

Bad weather across the country hasn't helped with postponements either. My league has too many refs, so I've only done 12 middles this season, and had 8 postponed. And that's in a league that has nearly 400 5's and below to choose from! Being out of the way as a 3 obviously can't help.

 

[RustyRef]

I got somewhat shouted down last time I said this, but L4 is at least in part designed as a test of commitment for higher levels. Are you prepared to put in the time and workload of an L3 but without a significant jump in pay? If so, they can put you forward for L3 and above knowing you're "not in it for the money" and if not, you can go back to L5 and stick with similar payment but for a much smaller time commitment.

L4 is tough by design, and it's worth doing as part of the process of getting to higher levels. I'd never recommend it if it's the limit of your ambition though.

Out of interest, have you been at L4 at any time in the past? As I know a lot of referees who have been at that level for 10+ years and are perfectly happy with their lot. They know they aren't good enough to get any higher, but enjoy the experience of officiating in semi-pro games every week.

Also, technically speaking, "put you forward for" stops at L5 to L4. Once you are L4, the commitment is deemed, there might be the odd case where someone has missed out on promotion to L3 because they aren't committed enough, but I'm pretty sure they are few and far between.

 

[GraemeS]

Out of interest, have you been at L4 at any time in the past? As I know a lot of referees who have been at that level for 10+ years and are perfectly happy with their lot. They know they aren't good enough to get any higher, but enjoy the experience of officiating in semi-pro games every week.

Also, technically speaking, "put you forward for" stops at L5 to L4. Once you are L4, the commitment is deemed, there might be the odd case where someone has missed out on promotion to L3 because they aren't committed enough, but I'm pretty sure they are few and far between.

Moderator edit: Stay on topic!!!!

I've done 2 1/2 seasons of 5-4, which all got stopped before I could complete the required games due to injury or covid. I've done the promotion seminar twice (where both times they explicitly told us that L4 is designed to be demanding and a test of your commitment for higher levels) and have done two or three seasons of running lines (alongside L4s who y'know, I talk to) and occasional middles in the leagues I'd have been regularly doing middles at if I did get my L4.

Maybe it's a quirk of where I am, but the standard of football I was seeing in that role isn't noticeably different from lines I have access to as an L5. I can still do middles in the U23s division of my local step 6 league, or the second adult division that is effectively step 8 without any expectation that I'll be sent more than 30-45 minutes away to do so (unlike for the premier division, where I could be sent anywhere across the league) and both of which will pay some players. Or I can go to either of my local grassroots leagues and expect mostly premier or div 1 matches, which again don't seem like a mile off in standard of football but are way easier in terms of time commitment and so the £/hour goes up.

Yes if I had achieved L4 I probably could have lined a level higher - but I know how much that pays and I know how much wider the scope of that league is, so I have a fairly strong idea of how the pay per hour out of the house would have dropped even further if I was doing that regularly. And I would have been doing that regularly - most of the L4s I ran lines for were thrilled to have been released by that league so that they could actually do a comparatively local middle for a change! Sometimes that was just because they needed middles for L3 and observations, but there were definitely a good number who were just sick of being sent miles to run a line for peanuts. Also, I don't love lining, so that makes the prospect even less appealing.

I also explicitly say "I don't recommend" aiming to sit at L4. Surely even you're not going to try and tell me I'm incorrect about my own opinion?

 

[Tealeaf]

the Spartan South Mids which also stretches up to my area are only operating L4s on their Premier Division, so L5s in the are can referee step 6 matches in the Spartan. (Usually 5-4 candidates or formerly higher level referees).

I believe this is set to change next season though and will be standardised that L4s will cover all step 5 & 6 matches, which had divided opinions, but will at least mean more games for L4s theoretically.

This was confirmed yesterday. Level 5s will continue to plug the gaps if there aren’t enough 4s (FA Competition weeks for example).

Could sound the death knell for the Spartan fitness test too.

 

[bester]

This was confirmed yesterday. Level 5s will continue to plug the gaps if there aren’t enough 4s (FA Competition weeks for example).

Could sound the death knell for the Spartan fitness test too.

There were the same grumbles when the UCL1 started to be ref'd by levels 4s.
Leicester Senior League was a step 7 ref'd by level 4s at the time!

 

[JamesL]

There were the same grumbles when the UCL1 started to be ref'd by levels 4s.

Think I'd be miffed as a FIFA/UEFA ref and got usurped by some level 4s

 

[Gabriel]

Think I'd be miffed as a FIFA/UEFA ref and got usurped by some level 4s

At least we have a chance now

 

[RustyRef]

Moderator edit: Stay on topic!!!!

I've done 2 1/2 seasons of 5-4, which all got stopped before I could complete the required games due to injury or covid. I've done the promotion seminar twice (where both times they explicitly told us that L4 is designed to be demanding and a test of your commitment for higher levels) and have done two or three seasons of running lines (alongside L4s who y'know, I talk to) and occasional middles in the leagues I'd have been regularly doing middles at if I did get my L4.

Maybe it's a quirk of where I am, but the standard of football I was seeing in that role isn't noticeably different from lines I have access to as an L5. I can still do middles in the U23s division of my local step 6 league, or the second adult division that is effectively step 8 without any expectation that I'll be sent more than 30-45 minutes away to do so (unlike for the premier division, where I could be sent anywhere across the league) and both of which will pay some players. Or I can go to either of my local grassroots leagues and expect mostly premier or div 1 matches, which again don't seem like a mile off in standard of football but are way easier in terms of time commitment and so the £/hour goes up.

Yes if I had achieved L4 I probably could have lined a level higher - but I know how much that pays and I know how much wider the scope of that league is, so I have a fairly strong idea of how the pay per hour out of the house would have dropped even further if I was doing that regularly. And I would have been doing that regularly - most of the L4s I ran lines for were thrilled to have been released by that league so that they could actually do a comparatively local middle for a change! Sometimes that was just because they needed middles for L3 and observations, but there were definitely a good number who were just sick of being sent miles to run a line for peanuts. Also, I don't love lining, so that makes the prospect even less appealing.

I also explicitly say "I don't recommend" aiming to sit at L4. Surely even you're not going to try and tell me I'm incorrect about my own opinion?

I don't think anyone would aim to sit at L4. Once you make the effort to get to that level you are naturally going to want to progress, but some realise over time that they are never going to get any higher and become, as I mentioned before, happy with their lot. 4 to 3 is arguably the most difficult promotion to get, it is the open end of the funnel and there are a very large number of referees seeking a very small number of places.

In terms of money, if that is your primary motivator then I agree that promotion into the NLS isn't going to benefit you. It might in the long term if you make it above L3, but as an L4 you could probably get more money on games outside of the NLS than you would do on step 5/6 middles and step 3/4 lines. But I would like to think that money is a secondary objective for anyone seeking promotion above L5, and if it isn't they might well need to readdress their expectations. Unless they make it to the top levels they aren't going to make any money out of refereeing.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

I don't think anyone would aim to sit at L4. Once you make the effort to get to that level you are naturally going to want to progress, but some realise over time that they are never going to get any higher and become, as I mentioned before, happy with their lot. 4 to 3 is arguably the most difficult promotion to get, it is the open end of the funnel and there are a very large number of referees seeking a very small number of places.

If I get my 3w I can see this being me on the women's pathway. It may well prove to be my ceiling and I'm happy with that. I'll be a 6 on the men's so will use that pathway to motivate myself, try to make 4 but won't be disheartened if it never happens.

If I find, after a couple of seasons at 3W, that I think I can go higher then I will try but I don't think I'm set on it. Maybe for younger officials that reach 4/3W earlier but I'm 27 and nursing chronic tendinopathy in both feet, frankly I know either my body or my brain is going to stop me making the top end of 11 a side football at least.

EDIT:

But I would like to think that money is a secondary objective for anyone seeking promotion above L5, and if it isn't they might well need to readdress their expectations. Unless they make it to the top levels they aren't going to make any money out of refereeing.

Also this, I want my 3W to referee a higher standard of women's football. I enjoy refereeing the women's game alot, it's just sadly not very competitive at county level in my area. I want to referee more 2-1s and less 6-0s! Refereeing is still a hobby that maybe helps pay for my baby's nappies, I do promotions to challenge myself, it won't be an aspirational career until I suddenly find myself a step or two from the very top, which is unlikely to happen.

I'm happy with that, if all I get from refereeing is some local friends and bettering myself physically and mentally then it's a win. Anything else is a bonus.

 

[GraemeS]

In terms of money, if that is your primary motivator then I agree that promotion into the NLS isn't going to benefit you. It might in the long term if you make it above L3, but as an L4 you could probably get more money on games outside of the NLS than you would do on step 5/6 middles and step 3/4 lines. But I would like to think that money is a secondary objective for anyone seeking promotion above L5, and if it isn't they might well need to readdress their expectations. Unless they make it to the top levels they aren't going to make any money out of refereeing.

I'm genuinely not having a dig here, because I know this isn't just your opinion and is one shared relatively widely, but you just happen to be the one who has stated it.

I'm not dumb enough to think I should get into refereeing to become rich. But when the job is physically and mentally taxing, requires multiple levels of assessment and promotion to be allowed to do it (once we're talking about being given games as an L4) and asks for a significant time commitment (not just per game, but in terms of "good availability"), I do believe in being fairly compensated for my work.

Putting all that effort in to get a promotion to L4 and finding out that my £/hour out of the house is more likely to drop than it is to go up? That's BS, and it kind of sucks that referees are being conditioned to accept and defend it. I've run a line in the FA Vase that took me out of the house for just under 9 hours and paid £20 - that felt unfair as well, but the expectation exists that we will swoon over "prestige appointments" and the money can plummet as a result. I've never really understood why referees in general are happy with that arrangement.

 

[RefereeX]

I'm genuinely not having a dig here, because I know this isn't just your opinion and is one shared relatively widely, but you just happen to be the one who has stated it.

I'm not dumb enough to think I should get into refereeing to become rich. But when the job is physically and mentally taxing, requires multiple levels of assessment and promotion to be allowed to do it (once we're talking about being given games as an L4) and asks for a significant time commitment (not just per game, but in terms of "good availability"), I do believe in being fairly compensated for my work.

Putting all that effort in to get a promotion to L4 and finding out that my £/hour out of the house is more likely to drop than it is to go up? That's BS, and it kind of sucks that referees are being conditioned to accept and defend it. I've run a line in the FA Vase that took me out of the house for just under 9 hours and paid £20 - that felt unfair as well, but the expectation exists that we will swoon over "prestige appointments" and the money can plummet as a result. I've never really understood why referees in general are happy with that arrangement.

But you're looking at time outside the house, which is fair enough, but if you look at time actually on the pitch, it is fair recognition. I suppose it just depends on which way you look at it, but currently as a 3, I'm outside the house for approx 6-7 hours, collecting £65+ mileage (and the mileage compensation is more than fair at 40p, although appreciate it is to pay for wear and tear also).

If you look at time outside the house, I'm getting under minimum wage, but if you look at what I'm actually being paid for in terms of refereeing a football match that lasts 2 hours from start to finish, I'm on £32.50 an hour. Big difference.

I don't expect work to pay me from when I leave the house, so football is unlikely to do so also. I also find refereeing far more enjoyable than my day job so I'd willingly take considerably less to do it. I meet a colleague usually a short while after leaving the house, we have a good chat and a laugh on the way to the match etc. It's not really 'work'.

Edit to add: You're entitled to look at it however you wish, but personally, as football is only a bonus on top of my day job income, I'm more than happy to accept less per hour out the house to referee a better standard of football and be better looked after, have a good day out with a team of 3 etc.

 

[Gabriel]

If you look at time outside the house, I'm getting under minimum wage, but if you look at what I'm actually being paid for in terms of refereeing a football match that lasts 2 hours from start to finish, I'm on £32.50 an hour. Big difference.

It will bother some people though that on that scale you are essentially making less than a Y/7/6/5 who also doesn't have to travel. For example, I don't have to travel more than about 15/20 minutes for the majority of my games as a Y and make on average in the region of £30 an hour. Combine that with the fact there's no travel and you lose a lot as a 4/3. It wouldn't bother me because I referee for the enjoyment, but that would deter some people.

 

[RefereeX]

It will bother some people though that on that scale you are essentially making less than a Y/7/6/5 who also doesn't have to travel. For example, I don't have to travel more than about 15/20 minutes for the majority of my games as a Y and make on average in the region of £30 an hour. Combine that with the fact there's no travel and you lose a lot as a 4/3. It wouldn't bother me because I referee for the enjoyment, but that would deter some people.

Absolutely, and that's not a problem. In fact it's probably a good thing for grass roots football as these people will hang around.

I couldn't bare the thought of going back to refereeing grass roots now I've had a taste for refereeing Step4/5/6 football. (Step 6 can be pretty painful), even if the financial rewards were greater. (I don't mind doing the odd grass roots game to help out, but I enjoy them far less)

 

[Gabriel]

Absolutely, and that's not a problem. In fact it's probably a good thing for grass roots football as these people will hang around.

I couldn't bare the thought of going back to refereeing grass roots now I've had a taste for refereeing Step4/5/6 football. (Step 6 can be pretty painful), even if the financial rewards were greater. (I don't mind doing the odd grass roots game to help out, but I enjoy them far less)

I can imagine. I'd much rather be doing NLS matches because I have a passion for refereeing, and I intend on giving myself a chance with promotion when I become a 7 in July. Grassroots definitely does need some people to stick around though.

 

[GraemeS]

But you're looking at time outside the house, which is fair enough, but if you look at time actually on the pitch, it is fair recognition. I suppose it just depends on which way you look at it, but currently as a 3, I'm outside the house for approx 6-7 hours, collecting £65+ mileage (and the mileage compensation is more than fair at 40p, although appreciate it is to pay for wear and tear also).

If you look at time outside the house, I'm getting under minimum wage, but if you look at what I'm actually being paid for in terms of refereeing a football match that lasts 2 hours from start to finish, I'm on £32.50 an hour. Big difference.

I don't expect work to pay me from when I leave the house, so football is unlikely to do so also. I also find refereeing far more enjoyable than my day job so I'd willingly take considerably less to do it. I meet a colleague usually a short while after leaving the house, we have a good chat and a laugh on the way to the match etc. It's not really 'work'.

Edit to add: You're entitled to look at it however you wish, but personally, as football is only a bonus on top of my day job income, I'm more than happy to accept less per hour out the house to referee a better standard of football and be better looked after, have a good day out with a team of 3 etc.

Football matches are 90 minute by definition though (barring cups or youth football), so the actual refereeing time is going to be unchanged from grassroots all the way to PL. It's not reasonable to pretend that popping down to the local park for a 15-30 minute drive, 45-30 minute pre-match and leave a few minutes after the final whistle is any way comparable to the distances and faff around semi-pro football.

It's the time outside the house that does jump up - both because of travel due to wider-spread league, but also due to the expectation of more buffer time for traffic, more pre match briefing and schmoozing, more reliably hospitality after and greater frequency of observers that require post-match briefing. I'm being very open about the fact this it's specifically those bits jumping up that are part of the calculation for why I don't think the demands of L4 match the change in compensation.

Yes my day job doesn't pay for travel time - but that's my day job. I moved across the country for this day job. If refereeing chooses to pay me enough that I make similar life decisions on that basis, I'll consider it in the same way! But when it wants to go from asking around 3 hours a weekend to asking 6-7 hours a weekend, it's not unreasonable to be a little surprised that it would be an improvement if it came with a 20% jump in compensation.

Absolutely, and that's not a problem. In fact it's probably a good thing for grass roots football as these people will hang around.

I couldn't bare the thought of going back to refereeing grass roots now I've had a taste for refereeing Step4/5/6 football. (Step 6 can be pretty painful), even if the financial rewards were greater. (I don't mind doing the odd grass roots game to help out, but I enjoy them far less)

I mean, this is almost exactly my point. You've done L4, which at least where I am means your best middles are likely that painful Step 6 - and now that you're L3 and reliably doing Step 4 and 5, the enjoyment and balance is right again. But you had to get through L4 to get there.

 

[OnlyUseMeWhistle]

It's the time outside the house that does jump up - both because of travel due to wider-spread league, but also due to the expectation of more buffer time for traffic, more pre match briefing and schmoozing, more reliably hospitality after and greater frequency of observers that require post-match briefing. I'm being very open about the fact this it's specifically those bits jumping up that are part of the calculation for why I don't think the demands of L4 match the change in compensation.

Travel I can justify being a sunk time but I agree the pre match being seen as unpaid feels ridiculous. As a radio producer I'm not just paid for recording/on air time.

 

[RefereeX]

Football matches are 90 minute by definition though (barring cups or youth football), so the actual refereeing time is going to be unchanged from grassroots all the way to PL. It's not reasonable to pretend that popping down to the local park for a 15-30 minute drive, 45-30 minute pre-match and leave a few minutes after the final whistle is any way comparable to the distances and faff around semi-pro football.

It's the time outside the house that does jump up - both because of travel due to wider-spread league, but also due to the expectation of more buffer time for traffic, more pre match briefing and schmoozing, more reliably hospitality after and greater frequency of observers that require post-match briefing. I'm being very open about the fact this it's specifically those bits jumping up that are part of the calculation for why I don't think the demands of L4 match the change in compensation.

Yes my day job doesn't pay for travel time - but that's my day job. I moved across the country for this day job. If refereeing chooses to pay me enough that I make similar life decisions on that basis, I'll consider it in the same way! But when it wants to go from asking around 3 hours a weekend to asking 6-7 hours a weekend, it's not unreasonable to be a little surprised that it would be an improvement if it came with a 20% jump in compensation.


I mean, this is almost exactly my point. You've done L4, which at least where I am means your best middles are likely that painful Step 6 - and now that you're L3 and reliably doing Step 4 and 5, the enjoyment and balance is right again. But you had to get through L4 to get there.

You're not wrong in what you're saying (except fortunately in my area I was mainly doing step 5 with the occasional step 6 at L4), but that's a personal choice. Like I say, even at L4 I enjoyed the feeling of being part of a team of 3 so much more than doing a game alone that I would more than willingly earn less to do so. After all, teenage kids are the only people who start refereeing for the financial benefits (not all teenage kids I will add!) It's just a case of where the individual pitches enjoyment vs financial reward. It's just a very different ball game and if you look purely at the financial side of it, of course it doesn't look as appealing.

 

[Gabriel]

(not all teenage kids I will add!

Good correction. Although from the 15/16 teenage refs I know, I'm the only one that does it because I like it. The others turn up looking like they'd rather be in bed!