The Ref Stop

Leicester Arsenal - Red Card

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Ciley Myrus said:
I think the instant call is red then when you look at distance from goal, ball under control, could other defender have got back, so many factors making it yellow but the over riding call for me is red
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So your default position is Red, even with other factors????.... I need to get up the M6 and get my passport stamped and come and watch you in action. Once you’ve shifted someone that’s it, there should be no questions to answer after, none! :yawn:
 
I think this is red. For me, the attacker is getting to the ball a long time before the other defender or a keeper, control is not difficult enough for that to be a doubt and you're then in a 1v1 OGSO with the attacker central and going directly for goal.

But none of that changes the fact that Ciley's overriding principal is utterly wrong - if any one of those factors is in doubt, you go yellow. Showing red when you're not obliged to is a sign of a referee wanting to be the centre of attention, which is not what we're employed to do.
 
GraemeS said:
I think this is red. For me, the attacker is getting to the ball a long time before the other defender or a keeper, control is not difficult enough for that to be a doubt and you're then in a 1v1 OGSO with the attacker central and going directly for goal.

But none of that changes the fact that Ciley's overriding principal is utterly wrong - if any one of those factors is in doubt, you go yellow. Showing red when you're not obliged to is a sign of a referee wanting to be the centre of attention, which is not what we're employed to do.
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As ever do your thang, and I will do mine. Why on earth would you leave folk on your park who should be off?
Making excuses for the defenders in the op is lame.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
As ever do your thang, and I will do mine. Why on earth would you leave folk on your park who should be off?
Making excuses for the defenders in the op is lame.
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So a player is punched on the nose....you don't see it happen just the mess in the middle of his face. You think it was the blue six because he was the only opposing player near him......do you shift him?
 
There'll never be two ref's alike (especially with the book they give us) and I respect Ciley's view of this incident. I'm heavily leaning towards a need for certainty when it comes to red. DOGSO & SFP will never be polarized like VC or OIAB, because the latter are based on facts rather than judgement calls
 
Mintyref said:
So a player is punched on the nose....you don't see it happen just the mess in the middle of his face. You think it was the blue six because he was the only opposing player near him......do you shift him?
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Certainly not, having not seen the incident, I cant call it
If i see it and am....."amber" then without ever saying it will never ever be yellow, ir will certainly mostly, be red
 
Ciley Myrus said:
As ever do your thang, and I will do mine. Why on earth would you leave folk on your park who should be off?
Making excuses for the defenders in the op is lame.
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This is where you're getting it wrong. They "should be off" if they've comitted a DOGSO offence. If they haven't - or if you're not sure if they have or haven't - then the one thing you don't know is that they "should be off". And jumping for the red based on a guess is a bizarre attitude and not the correct approach IMO.
 
GraemeS said:
This is where you're getting it wrong. They "should be off" if they've comitted a DOGSO offence. If they haven't - or if you're not sure if they have or haven't - then the one thing you don't know is that they "should be off". And jumping for the red based on a guess is a bizarre attitude and not the correct approach IMO.
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There is such a thing as 'balance of probabilities'. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' is somewhat subjective too. Where in the book does it say, 'the referee must be certain when deciding upon a dismissal'?. WRT DOGSO, the Law implies uncertainty by indicating factors to consider. I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, but I don't think Ciley's approach should be discounted so readily
 
Big Cat said:
There is such a thing as 'balance of probabilities'. 'Beyond reasonable doubt' is somewhat subjective too. Where in the book does it say, 'the referee must be certain when deciding upon a dismissal'?. WRT DOGSO, the Law implies uncertainty by indicating factors to consider. I'm playing devil's advocate here a bit, but I don't think Ciley's approach should be discounted so readily
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I mean, I'd say that the "O" in DOGSO does at least imply that you should be fairly certain?

But I can turn that question back on you as well with a common sense argument: a red is a game-changing decision, so what's the rationale for choosing that when you don't know if it's the right decision or not, and you have a justifiable less dramatic option to go for?
 
GraemeS said:
I mean, I'd say that the "O" in DOGSO does at least imply that you should be fairly certain?

But I can turn that question back on you as well with a common sense argument: a red is a game-changing decision, so what's the rationale for choosing that when you don't know if it's the right decision or not, and you have a justifiable less dramatic option to go for?
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And issuing a yellow when it should be red is equally game changing
 
GraemeS said:
I mean, I'd say that the "O" in DOGSO does at least imply that you should be fairly certain?

But I can turn that question back on you as well with a common sense argument: a red is a game-changing decision, so what's the rationale for choosing that when you don't know if it's the right decision or not, and you have a justifiable less dramatic option to go for?
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I don't think it's realistic to ever know you're ''right'. Dogso's are a judgement call of what is ''obvious'. One man's obvious is another's grey or orange area. Don't get me wrong, my recurrent theme in my first full season has been that of excessive leniency, so its to be expected that there's other refs out there (Ciley) redressing the balance
 
I think what i'm saying is, 'being decisive might actually be better than being certain in terms of getting more KMIs correct'
 
I remeber Collina sent someone off for DOGSO at Parkhead about ten year ago and because it was him, nobody batted an eyelid, Without checking, it was nearly at half way line with two defenders still to beat. He deemed it DOGSO. He was not looking at ifs and maybes re the defenders, but, focussing on the attack with had been illegally thwarted.
I maintain if you trust your own ability and insticnts, if you think red, then go red.
As ever, if someone allows themselve to downgrade the card and go yellow, in your game, thats up to you. Lets hope the offender does not score the winning goal then the vid clips show he should have been off
 
RustyRef said:
LOL, so yet again Padfoot has stated his view and anyone that disagrees is wrong. Have you thought of a career as a politician … ? :)
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Well, quite obviously in scenarios,there will be a right and a wrong answer......on this occasion a red card is the wrong one, for the reasons previously stated....so,it’s not really about agreeing or disagreeing with me, it’s about a simple factual outcome.
 
Sorry totally disagree. Its a red.
If on your park you wish to go yellow thats your call
You can explain how someone fouled central 30 yards from goal with no defenders in his path is not a clear chance to score a goal. If thats not, then i dont know what is.
 
Padfoot said:
Well, quite obviously in scenarios,there will be a right and a wrong answer......on this occasion a red card is the wrong one, for the reasons previously stated....so,it’s not really about agreeing or disagreeing with me, it’s about a simple factual outcome.
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No it isn't, as there is no way on earth that wide defender could get back if the attacker hadn't been fouled.
 
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