A&H

Kicking the ball to a player's head while in play

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"Do you seriously think that a red card is the more difficult to sell option in this particular instance? Sure, in other instances it may well be, but not in this one."

Where I referee, yes, this would be a hard sell even though it shouldn't be. As I stated I would deal with it every time (and have done so) but the players in my part of the country would not understand why - and didn't when it happened on my pitch. They didn't like the player's action and got a bit aggy but there wasn't the sort of response you get with a two-footed challenge, even though this offence is potentially more serious. A player told the offender "there's no need for that! That's out of order!" but no one actually kicked off.

I have had several mass confrontations after leg breaker challenges, and what is on the video doesn't even register as such on my scale. "2 players from the victim's team ..... trying to have words with the player who did it" is not a mass con. I've had 22 players plus subs, managers, physios and spectators going for it after a particularly bad challenge - that's a mass con! I wouldn't be surprised if that happened here because it's obviously a senior level and I'd expect the players to understand what was meant but they apparently didn't. They were upset but not unduly so, unless it kicked off after the video stopped.

As you say, the match officials left a lot to be desired on this occasion. The lethargy showed by the referee could have exacerbated the situation.

In my incident I was straight in quickly with my whistle and getting him away from the area before anyone thought to have a go, but that never happened. I use a yellow book, so the players thought I was cautioning him, and I heard players state that "that's a bit harsh!" When I then produced the red it went very quiet before the offenders team started having a go at the decision. No one from the victim's team said anything to suggest they agreed with the decision, and as stated I actually had comments from them later to suggest that they felt I'd over-reacted.

As I said, this is a red card, but I had trouble with a very similar incident because the players didn't expect it when it came. Usually you can tell if a red card is justified from player reaction. On this occasion they felt that the action was unnecessary but I was the only one who felt it warranted dismissal, so yes, I "seriously think that a red card is the more difficult to sell option in this particular instance" - but that didn't stop me from doing so.
 
The Referee Store
You make a good constructive point above. Far more sensible that my original postings but hitting the target of my point. I certainly never said I would not red card, or, that I thought it was not a red, I was however trying to establish HOW it was a red, and simply to say "it violent conduct" is not cutting it.
2 foot flying challenges do provoke a swarm of players and pure disgust, but, I honest believe in this clip, and if it happened in most grass roots games, a few folk might put the "wtf are you doing" arms expression but, I dont think too many folk would chase you round the park demanding a red card.
 
but, I dont think too many folk would chase you round the park demanding a red card.

Not really relevant though is it?

I doubt you'd get too many chasing you round the park demanding a red card because one player called another a "whankah" - but you'd be technically correct in issuing one .... :)
 
I was however trying to establish HOW it was a red, and simply to say "it violent conduct" is not cutting it.
You've said several times that you think it is a red but at the same time you don't see how it can be justified under the Laws. Various people have stated their opinions that it can be justified as violent conduct and have given cogent reasons, including a direct quotation from the Laws. Yet you still continue to maintain that you don't see that argument, without really explaining why, other than implying several times that it's somehow to do with the fact that the ball is in play (which is incorrect, as it is irrelevant to the applicability of VC).

I asked this once before but what part of the definition of violent conduct (as quoted verbatim by @Padfoot earlier) do you see as not applicable to this scenario? Just in case, here's the definition again.
Violent conduct is when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against an opponent when not challenging for the ball, or against a team-mate, team official, match official, spectator or any other person, regardless of whether contact is made.

As far I can tell, the only part of it that is really even up for debate is whether the force used was excessive. But assuming that a referee, as the sole judge of facts related to play in the game that they are refereeing, decides that it was excessive, I don't see any way to argue that the definition of violent conduct cannot be applied.

So, perhaps you could explain why you think it's so impossible to consider that forcefully kicking the ball into the face of a prostrate opponent could ever be seen as falling within this definition.
 
Why you seem to concentrate on preaching to me is flattering but wholly unnecessary. Not for one second am I going onto my next game and making decisions based on an internet randoms postings.
The poster Jeff explained my thinking better than I did. And at no time past, present, or future, will I be justifying my comments to you personally.

If you wish to private mail me, please do so I can ignore you there. Failing that, please refrain from personalising your posts directed towards me

Its not meant to be a personal site
 
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Why you seem to concentrate on preaching to me is flattering but wholly unnecessary. Not for one second am I going onto my next game and making decisions based on an internet randoms postings.
The poster Jeff explained my thinking better than I did. And at no time past, present, or future, will I be justifying my comments to you personally.

If you wish to private mail me, please do so I can ignore you there. Failing that, please refrain from personalising your posts directed towards me

Its not meant to be a personal site

TL : DR

Summary....he can’t answer you because he can’t admit he is badly wrong on this subject.....
 
Why you seem to concentrate on preaching to me is flattering but wholly unnecessary. Not for one second am I going onto my next game and making decisions based on an internet randoms postings.
The poster Jeff explained my thinking better than I did. And at no time past, present, or future, will I be justifying my comments to you personally.

If you wish to private mail me, please do so I can ignore you there. Failing that, please refrain from personalising your posts directed towards me

Its not meant to be a personal site
Actually it is a forum where views, opinions, facts and ideas can be exchanged and or debated. Therefore it's reasonable for someone to reply to you directly if they don't agree with what you've posted and to seek further clarifications.
I think given the industry we are in where we all strive for consistency it is ever more important that we discuss, or challenge ideas that fall outside general consensus to help us all avoid becoming last weeks ref.
I dont think that posters should just make statements without basis and refuse to validate them in anyway as they could easily be taken as gospel by our less experienced colleagues causing them issues in their own games which, incidentally, is the total opposite of what the forum seeks to achieve.
 
TL : DR

Summary....he can’t answer you because he can’t admit he is badly wrong on this subject.....


Can you show me where I said anything wrong? I asked for clarification that a red card was correct. Thats all. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Actually it is a forum where views, opinions, facts and ideas can be exchanged and or debated. Therefore it's reasonable for someone to reply to you directly if they don't agree with what you've posted and to seek further clarifications.
I think given the industry we are in where we all strive for consistency it is ever more important that we discuss, or challenge ideas that fall outside general consensus to help us all avoid becoming last weeks ref.
I dont think that posters should just make statements without basis and refuse to validate them in anyway as they could easily be taken as gospel by our less experienced colleagues causing them issues in their own games which, incidentally, is the total opposite of what the forum seeks to achieve.


I asked for justification for a red card. Nowhere did I make any kind of statement
 
Nobody directly.

Can you really be punished for kicking the ball at someone whilst the game is live?,

is what I asked on my first reply to this.
Which was a rhetorical question answered by yourself in the same post. And then stressed on in the next couple of posts. Give us some credit for knowing the difference between a rhetorical question and a real one.

I asked for justification for a red card. Nowhere did I make any kind of statement
If this was the case, when you were offered justification by @Peter Grove (twice) you wouldn't have responded with contempt.

Your view, the way I (and most others) understood was, you can see why it should be a red but because you cant justify it in law, you wouldn’t give a red. You changed that view which is good. But you are not acknowledging the change of view which is not so good.

Case closed :)
 
Which was a rhetorical question answered by yourself in the same post. And then stressed on in the next couple of posts. Give us some credit for knowing the difference between a rhetorical question and a real one.


If this was the case, when you were offered justification by @Peter Grove (twice) you wouldn't have responded with contempt.

Your view, the way I (and most others) understood was, you can see why it should be a red but because you cant justify it in law, you wouldn’t give a red. You changed that view which is good. But you are not acknowledging the change of view which is not so good.

Case closed :)

dude-you-got-schooled.jpg
 
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