KFTPM - bizarre situation

[JamesL]

Is it possible to see the exact text of IFAB's email?

Dear Sir



Thank you very much for your e mail and question



If the 11th player of Team A connect take a kick, Team B will remove one player and the referee will start the 2nd Round of kicks i.e. Kicks 21 and 22 would not take place.



We hope this clarifies matters for you.



Best wishes

The IFAB

 

[Josh the referee]

Dear Sir



Thank you very much for your e mail and question



If the 11th player of Team A connect take a kick, Team B will remove one player and the referee will start the 2nd Round of kicks i.e. Kicks 21 and 22 would not take place.



We hope this clarifies matters for you.



Best wishes

The IFAB

Still slightly confused, does that mean the 11th player on Team B has to be removed? Can it be the 9th player from Team B for example?

If the 11th player was the goalkeeper, does that mean they could still go in goal?

 

[JamesL]

Still slightly confused, does that mean the 11th player on Team B has to be removed? Can it be the 9th player from Team B for example?

If the 11th player was the goalkeeper, does that mean they could still go in goal?

One player = any player

If they exclude the keeper he cant take part in any capacity.

 

[Josh the referee]

One player = any player

If they exclude the keeper he cant take part in any capacity.

Ok thanks for clarifying that!

 

[RustyRef]

I'm still not exactly clear what would happen if Team A took and scored their 11th penalty, and it only then came to light that Team B's 11th taker was injured and couldn't take his kick. All I can assume is that Team A's successful 11th penalty would have to be voided, they then reduce a player and the kicks start again with 10 players each. Not sure I'd want to try and explain that to Team A in real time though

 

[socal lurker]

I'm still not exactly clear what would happen if Team A took and scored their 11th penalty, and it only then came to light that Team B's 11th taker was injured and couldn't take his kick. All I can assume is that Team A's successful 11th penalty would have to be voided, they then reduce a player and the kicks start again with 10 players each. Not sure I'd want to try and explain that to Team A in real time though

Disagree. I don't think there is anything in the Laws that would allow a kick to be voided after it was taken. I think the only option under the Laws is that Team A would now reduce, and Team B would get to have any player take the kick. May not seem fair, but I don't see any path to your solution under the Laws. (Of course, there isn't actually a path to IFAB's answer either . . . but erasing something that already happened is another kettle of fish; and if you would erase the miss, wouldn't you also have to erase if it had been made? )

Again, the only real solution here is for the issue to actually be addressed in the Laws.

 

[RustyRef]

Disagree. I don't think there is anything in the Laws that would allow a kick to be voided after it was taken. I think the only option under the Laws is that Team A would now reduce, and Team B would get to have any player take the kick. May not seem fair, but I don't see any path to your solution under the Laws. (Of course, there isn't actually a path to IFAB's answer either . . . but erasing something that already happened is another kettle of fish; and if you would erase the miss, wouldn't you also have to erase if it had been made? )

Again, the only real solution here is for the issue to actually be addressed in the Laws.

That isn't what the IFAB response said though, it said kicks 21 and 22 would not take place. I don't think it addresses what would or should happen if kick 21 has already taken place.

 

[JamesL]

Another one that's having to be replayed due to an error in law.

 

[es1]

This one is more clear cut!

 

[RustyRef]

That is really poor, much more obvious a mistake and the referee will be in real trouble. Not just a have three weeks off mistake, but potentially something that will be held against him for years, even if just subconsciously.

This is why it is so important, especially at L4 and above, that you know law inside out. Kind of reinforces my previous comment in response to @Ben448844's question as to why referees are suspended for these mistakes. This will cost the clubs a huge amount of money, the cost of the home team staging the replayed game, the cost of the away team travelling to the same venue again, and the cost of the three match officials. You can't make really, really poor decisions like that and expect to not get sanctioned.

 

[Redster]

View attachment 6082Another one that's having to be replayed due to an error in law.

Is there a specific competition rule regarding how sin bins before KFTPM are dealt with? They wouldn't seem to me to fall under warnings or cautions, but nor are the send offs.

Please bear in mind I have no experience with sinbins whatsoever

 

[Max2]

View attachment 6082Another one that's having to be replayed due to an error in law.

ooooh that's my part of the world, stoneham are 2 miles away

 

[Ben448844]

That is really poor, much more obvious a mistake and the referee will be in real trouble. Not just a have three weeks off mistake, but potentially something that will be held against him for years, even if just subconsciously.

This is why it is so important, especially at L4 and above, that you know law inside out. Kind of reinforces my previous comment in response to @Ben448844's question as to why referees are suspended for these mistakes. This will cost the clubs a huge amount of money, the cost of the home team staging the replayed game, the cost of the away team travelling to the same venue again, and the cost of the three match officials. You can't make really, really poor decisions like that and expect to not get sanctioned.

Personally I'd support suspension from reffing in that competition for 3 games. Or to make it universal, no suspension for the refs but demotion to lower leagues for 3 weeks for example.

But I obviously accept that mistakes cost teams and have a financial impact and there does need to be consequences. This is a really straight forward one and the 3 officials between them must get this one right.

 

[one]

Is there a specific competition rule regarding how sin bins before KFTPM are dealt with? They wouldn't seem to me to fall under warnings or cautions, but nor are the send offs.

Please bear in mind I have no experience with sinbins whatsoever

No but the laws are clear on it so comp rules can't overrule it. Sin binned players (not including double sin bin) can take part in KFTPM.

 

[ChasObserverRefDeveloper]

Is there a specific competition rule regarding how sin bins before KFTPM are dealt with? They wouldn't seem to me to fall under warnings or cautions, but nor are the send offs.

Please bear in mind I have no experience with sinbins whatsoever

The Notes and Modifications section on the IFAB LOTG pages sets out clearly that a player may participate in KFTPM after a sin bin.

 

[JamesL]

I'd also add that the bit in the LOTG are guidelines for national associations and the specific rules are set by them, approved by IFAB, within the guidelines.

I think the question though, is do they carry over into KFTPM as a caution, and the obvious answer is no. It is still a caution, so is covered by that statement, and wouldn't change alot if they did.or didn't, at least under the English system

 

[Redster]

I'm not sure I agree that it is a caution. But I'm sure it would have been taken care of by rules setting up sin bins by the associations

 

[JamesL]

I'm not sure I agree that it is a caution. But I'm sure it would have been taken care of by rules setting up sin bins by the associations

The player is shown a yellow card. The universal symbol for..... A caution. It just carries an additional punishment.

The guidelines in the laws of the game state:

The 131st AGM of The IFAB held in London on 3rd March 2017 approved the use
of temporary dismissals (sin bins) for all or some cautions/yellow cards (YCs)
in youth, veterans, disability and grassroots football, subject to the approval of
the competition’s national FA, confederation or FIFA, whichever is appropriate.

A temporary dismissal is when a player commits a cautionable (YC) offence and
is punished by an immediate ‘suspension’ from participating in the next part of
that match

They are also reportable as cautions in post match administration.

 

[GraemeS]

I like that argument, but then how do you explain the lack of a dismissal for 2 x cautionable offences when one is a sin-bin and the other isn't? Or for that matter, the fact we don't use a red card (the universal symbol for "you will take no further part in this game and cannot be substituted") if a player is sin binned twice and can then take no further part in the game and cannot be substituted?

I go back and forward on if sin bins were a good idea, but one thing I'm absolutely clear on is that the methods chosen for signalling them and for dealing with multiples are much more confusing than they needed to be.

 

[Redref34]

Do the Assistant referees and/or 4th official not help out with clarifying the law in these situations or is that not the going thing? Appreciate that it is really important to know the laws inside out at L4 and above but surely in the dissent case another one of the officials could have said something (assuming between 3/4 of you someone knows the correct laws.