Jimenez Double Yellow

[socal lurker]

Well, except…

Well, yeah the R $%$# up the restart as you set out above.

Interesting question: is there a viable protest here, in that the player can't have failed to respect the distance or delayed the restart (unless the R ordered him back, which I don't see on the clip I saw), as the opponent wasn't entitled to take the restart yet?

 

[bester]

Heard this on the radio and was wondering why the ref would've blown the whistle with JImenez hanging around?

If there's no whistle it's a clear error in law by the referee but no sympathy at all for the player.

 

[Mr Dean]

I was listening to this on the radio. At the time I didn’t get it. A ref should never have a distance problem after a yellow card - because the restart is on the whistle.

Now that I’ve seen this I think it is firstly, poor refereeing and also, I think it’s a mistake in law.

Moss has not blown the whistle. There is no restart, the ball is not in play.

I think this is s huge balls up by the ref. And it’s compounded by a series of errors: not penalizing obvious offences earlier, losing the game, giving arguably soft yellows in a bid to win back control, and then this.

Unless the DFK is taken quickly and the card delayed (not the case here) this is a ceremonial restart, Moss should manage the players, blow the whistle when ready. He doesn’t blow for restart, he’s lost it, and gives a second yellow, when what he should have done is point at his whistle and ger the restart taken cleanly.

Car crash for me

I think Jimenez was cautioned for delaying the restart of play. As you explained, Moss shouldn't restart play until Jimenez retreats the required distance but Jimenez doesn't retreat (bizarre decision from Jimenez because all of his teammates are in the correct defensive position). Moss can't restart play.

Man City attempt to start play without the referee's whistle. Jimenez intercepts the pass. This action, in my view, makes up Moss's mind about cautioning him because everybody expects a caution here. I see no mistake in law.

 

[JamesL]

Well, yeah the R $%$# up the restart as you set out above.

Interesting question: is there a viable protest here, in that the player can't have failed to respect the distance or delayed the restart (unless the R ordered him back, which I don't see on the clip I saw), as the opponent wasn't entitled to take the restart yet?

No. Because thr law says 10 yards away, not 10 yards away once the ref says.

 

[cwyeary]

One could make an argument that delaying the restart is supportable even though I think with the whistle being required there it shouldn't really happen. I'd argue if the yellow was for frd than it's an objectively wrong decision since the free kick wasn't properly taken. But it felt like one of those decisions made in the first half that was swayed by the reaction of the crowd and the players. Because it sure feels like one of those decisions where in a big game between two top three teams the referee manages it and everyone says what a good job he did. Whereas wolves gets that second yellow at Manchester City and I'm not sure if it happens the other way around.

 

[RustyRef]

One could make an argument that delaying the restart is supportable even though I think with the whistle being required there it shouldn't really happen. I'd argue if the yellow was for frd than it's an objectively wrong decision since the free kick wasn't properly taken. But it felt like one of those decisions made in the first half that was swayed by the reaction of the crowd and the players. Because it sure feels like one of those decisions where in a big game between two top three teams the referee manages it and everyone says what a good job he did. Whereas wolves gets that second yellow at Manchester City and I'm not sure if it happens the other way around.

Absolutely don't agree, that is a second yellow whoever the team are. Just look at how quick Jon Moss reacts, he doesn't even have time to think, the second the block is made he has already gone to his pocket. Not a single person in football is questioning this decision expect perhaps a few referees on here, the scandal would have been not to caution for this.

 

[socal lurker]

No. Because thr law says 10 yards away, not 10 yards away once the ref says.

We’ll, I kinda know that, but that’s not really the question.

Since there was no whistle, there was no restart, so it can’t be FRD. And the R doesn’t seem to be ready, so he isn’t really delaying the restart yet, unless the reason Amos’s isn’t ready is because he’s being a knucklehead.

All that said, the delay is certainly a subjective questio, which would make it not a mistake in Law.

But I do think, as above, that it was badly handled in not intervening Earlier as its a ceremonial restart.

Absolutely don't agree, that is a second yellow whoever the team are. Just look at how quick Jon Moss reacts, he doesn't even have time to think, the second the block is made he has already gone to his pocket. Not a single person in football is questioning this decision expect perhaps a few referees on here, the scandal would have been not to caution for this.

I’m not convinced. I think it would have been very easy for the R to make clear that he hadn’t whistled for the restart, so the block is nothing as they weren’t allowed to take the kick yet. I agree this is an easy card if they can take the kick, but I think he easily could have (and should have) refrained from giving a card here.

 

[one]

I have said this before. PL refereeing is a lot about what's sellable and a little about what the law wants them to do.

On this occasion a yellow was easy to sell even though the restart wasn't legal . A little later ignoring FRD was easy to sell and that's what he did. I have seen them many times order a retake on similar situations, again because it's easier to sell even though it's not supported in law (though in OP retake would be supported in law because a whistle was needed for the restart).

While may pointed out this is good refereeing, for me it is only good refereeing if it is consistent, but there is absolutely no consistency in this.

 

[PP62]

I'm getting a bit bored of reading how Jon Moss was at fault here. The player was being a complete tool and can't have any complaints. Failing to retreat - tick, attempting to delay the restart - tick. He just stood there! The second yellow was completely avoidable; by Jimenez.

 

[GraemeS]

I do think Moss mishandled it, but in a very different way to most non-refs. By not whistling for the restart, failure to respect the distance isn't a valid card, while waiting for the City player to play the ball into him means the restart wasn't delayed. Given what happened, the correct thing to do was order a retake.

There are a lot of silly things Jiminez did, but Moss wandering around and not being proactive means a really good opportunity to do the right thing was missed, and instead it's a non-LOTG-compliant mess.

 

[bloovee]

I'm amazed there are so many thinking letter of the law rather than spirit, and willing to reward players for ****housery. I suppose some would have booked Dias for not waiting for the whistle...

Umpteen reasons for second yellow before the whistle: delaying restart, unsporting behaviour, not doing what a match official instructed, taking the piss, being an idiot...

Seriously, do people really condone referees having to wait until players eventually retreat the correct distance until they can legitimately signal the restart?

Also seriously, does everyone insist on a whistle to restart after a caution? Why insist on that but not enforce the 6 seconds rule on a GK?

 

[socal lurker]

Also seriously, does everyone insist on a whistle to restart after a caution? Why insist on that but not enforce the 6 seconds rule on a GK?

To be clear evertone knows the game is starting after the delay. But I am curious if PL refs always do it in the context like this one, with an innocuous restart at MF.

I also think that we can think Moss handled it poorly while also thinking the knucklehead behaved in a way that was worthy of a caution. parsing whether it is technically proper can be a good thought exercise. I do agree it is defensible (in both law and spirit) as DR. I’d be more comfortable with the caution if the nonsense of delaying FKs were sanctioned more often, which I’d frankly like to see.

 

[RustyRef]

To be clear evertone knows the game is starting after the delay. But I am curious if PL refs always do it in the context like this one, with an innocuous restart at MF.

I also think that we can think Moss handled it poorly while also thinking the knucklehead behaved in a way that was worthy of a caution. parsing whether it is technically proper can be a good thought exercise. I do agree it is defensible (in both law and spirit) as DR. I’d be more comfortable with the caution if the nonsense of delaying FKs were sanctioned more often, which I’d frankly like to see.

Premier League, and FIFA referees in Europe, don't whistle for routine restarts even after cards, injuries or subs. It's another law that isn't really followed, and to be honest it makes no sense to me to restart after those situations unless it is necessary.

 

[JamesL]

Premier League, and FIFA referees in Europe, don't whistle for routine restarts even after cards, injuries or subs. It's another law that isn't really followed, and to be honest it makes no sense to me to restart after those situations unless it is necessary.

Yes, we should all just pack up and go home.

 

[GraemeS]

Premier League, and FIFA referees in Europe, don't whistle for routine restarts even after cards, injuries or subs. It's another law that isn't really followed, and to be honest it makes no sense to me to restart after those situations unless it is necessary.

Moss clearly wasn't ready though. He's only just finished putting his card/notebook away, he's still only a few yards from the incident (which would be reasonable if he were trying to manage Jiminez, but he wasn't) and ends up fumbling for his whistle.

The overall point of all this is that he's been pressurised into the decision by City trying to play a quick FK when it should have been ceremonial. I'm not in favour of players messing around with restarts, but if the ref isn't ready and a team tries to take a FK, most of the time you just order the restart. It's the sudden abandonment of that principal that I'm uncomfortable with here, it just reads like Moss losing his temper a little bit.

 

[Anubis]

Absolutely zero proactivity from the referee. This was, or should have been managable.
We cant account for the stupidity of players and in its own merits its a yelloe card here.
Greater awareness from referee, ' get back, get back', proactive, leaving aside the whistle debate would have prevented this.
To me, the referee has his caution technique back to front, stop play, speak, show card. Moss stops play, shows card, and is then engaged in debate, and, in no way appears ( i say appear as only he will truly know' ready for the restart, and if he is not ready, City cannot play.. Lax in showing card to the guys back also, player not isolated, just messy and lackimg proper control all round.

The referee looks flustered, does not deliver the first yc well at all and this contributed to the dismissal. Totally unaware of his surroundings and lacking proactivity. No way he ready for the restart from his stance

if folk today go round second yellowing for this, one would hope no fouls requiring cautions went unpunished.

 

[RustyRef]

Moss clearly wasn't ready though. He's only just finished putting his card/notebook away, he's still only a few yards from the incident (which would be reasonable if he were trying to manage Jiminez, but he wasn't) and ends up fumbling for his whistle.

The overall point of all this is that he's been pressurised into the decision by City trying to play a quick FK when it should have been ceremonial. I'm not in favour of players messing around with restarts, but if the ref isn't ready and a team tries to take a FK, most of the time you just order the restart. It's the sudden abandonment of that principal that I'm uncomfortable with here, it just reads like Moss losing his temper a little bit.

He clearly was ready, or he would have had it retaken with no sanction issued.

I don't get these attempts to try and blame the referee for the absolutely sheer stupidity of a vastly experienced international player. Even his own manager is backing the referee and blaming Jiminez, the only peole that seem to think Moss was at fault appear to be fellow referees. More so, even Wolves fans don't have an issue with the referee, EVERYONE in football expects a caution there.

 

[one]

I don't think anyone is saying Jimenez didn't deserve it here.

For me, if any assessor or observer who sees this in their game and doesn't give feedback to the referee that they could have handled it a lot better, is doing the referee a disservice.

 

[bloovee]

Moss clearly wasn't ready though. He's only just finished putting his card/notebook away, he's still only a few yards from the incident (which would be reasonable if he were trying to manage Jiminez, but he wasn't) and ends up fumbling for his whistle.

The overall point of all this is that he's been pressurised into the decision by City trying to play a quick FK when it should have been ceremonial. I'm not in favour of players messing around with restarts, but if the ref isn't ready and a team tries to take a FK, most of the time you just order the restart. It's the sudden abandonment of that principal that I'm uncomfortable with here, it just reads like Moss losing his temper a little bit.

Since when has "ceremonial" been used of a FK except one where there's a chance of shooting for goal or at least swinging in a cross? A ceremonial FK is nearly always for the referee's convenience (even if the team wants it). Quick FK is the norm; the whole point of a quick FK is to lessen the disadvantage to the team who get the FK. And a FK 30 seconds after the foul can't possibly be called a quick FK!

If this one incident emboldens referees to be "pressurised" into dealing with "stand on it" instructions (so teams who've committed a foul don't then stop the FK being taken quickly) then hooray.

(I can't believe I'm the only ref to respond to a "stand on it" shout from the manager to warn the player not to do it.)

 

[bloovee]

I do t think anyone is saying Jiminez didn't deserve it here's.

For me, if any assessor or observer who sees this in their game and doesn't give feedback to the referee that they could have handled this a lot better, is doing the referee a disservice.

By letting the offender get away with being an idiot? They that live by playing silly beggars...