Interesting scenario

[one]

Arriving to the ground and walking to the change rooms, before a team list has been submitted, you see 'players' wearing the two opposing club colours warming up on the filed. You see one of the persons (supposed player) wearing club colours spitting at another person (supposed opponent player). What, if any, actions do you take at this time?

What, if any, action do you take after the team list are submitted?
Keep in mind the possiblity of the person of interest may or may not be on the team sheet.

 

[socal lurker]

Law 5:

• has the authority to take disciplinary action from entering the field of play for the pre-match inspection until leaving the field of play after the match ends (including kicks from the penalty mark). If, before entering the field of play at the start of the match, a player commits a sending-off offence, the referee has the authority to prevent the player taking part in the match (see Law 3.6); the referee will report any other misconduct

As I read your scenario, he R authority hasn’t kicked in, so R can do nothing other than report and let competition authority decide what to do. Oh, and watch those guys VERY carefully during the game….

 

[one]

Fair enough. What if this happens during pre-match inspection but before team lists are done?

 

[JamesL]

Fair enough. What if this happens during pre-match inspection but before team lists are done?

You have to make enquiries as to who the person is.
Is he a player. Is he a team official. Then you decide what action it is.
If player not on team sheet and reported. If official not in tech area and reported.
Either way, they are gone in my opinion

 

[one]

If player not on team sheet and reported. If official not in tech area and reported.

That's the bit I'm not sure about. Actually I should say I disagree with. You can't enforce a team on who they list on the team sheet. With no incidents, only persons on the list can partake in the match. With incidents, only persons on team list bar those whom you prevent can partake in the match. So in this case, they are free to put that person on the team list but the person can't partake.

And of course, either way it is reported.

We are talking lotg here. Comp rules may ask you to do additional things so long as they don't contradict lotg.

 

[JamesL]

Yes, but if they intend on naming on the team sheet and they have committed a sending off offence then they aren't going on any of my team sheets. And that would be correct in law.

Law 3.6.

A player who is sent off:
• before submission of the team list cannot be named on the team list in
any capacity

 

[Ben448844]

Would you physically show the card in this scenario or just inform the player that he won't be taking part? (bearing in mind that if its pre match inspection theres every chance that you don't have your cards on you.

 

[Ben448844]

I do have a bit of an experience with this. Cup semi final at a neutral ground. One of our players wasn't feeling great so a reserve team player was called up to make up the numbers on the bench. When we got to the ground the player states that he's feeling better and the reserve team player who has been called up is told that he's now not required.

He doesn't have time to get back to our home ground to start the reserve team game (this is long before role on role off subs) so he basically threatens the assistant manager on the pitch. Ref comes over and he's called the C word amongst other things. Ref tells him he's sending him off but can't have actually put it through as he did play the 2nd half of the reserve team game from memory.

Can't think of ever seeing a player given a red before a game starts tbh. Must happen though

 

[Anubis]

Would you physically show the card in this scenario or just inform the player that he won't be taking part? (bearing in mind that if its pre match inspection theres every chance that you don't have your cards on you.

wee sidenote, even during open play and a sending off offence occurs, you can dismiss them in the absence of a card
This situation will hopefully never happen but the cards are merely the tried, tested, and accepted communication method for a sanction
However on the slim chance the offence occurs and you found yourself without card, the lack of card does not nullify the sanction.

it has actually happened on a clip, ref reaches for book, realises its not ther, so waves an imagnary card in the air! this however is not required


Patrice Evra famously got 'sent off' pre match few years ago after an altercation with some of his own fans

 

[JamesL]

Would you physically show the card in this scenario or just inform the player that he won't be taking part? (bearing in mind that if its pre match inspection theres every chance that you don't have your cards on you.

The answer to this one is in law 5. You only have power to show cards from entering at the start of the match.
So the answer to your q is no. No card showing.
I dont think the reporting his clear. Its not really a sen doff but it says will report any other misconduct.
What I think it means is, that you don't caution but would report a caution able offence (so it doesn't carry into game, think it was the rationale behind the law wording) but I don't think I would report as red card/send off, I would report also as misconduct stating the player was not permitted to take part in the game.

 

[one]

Yes, but if they intend on naming on the team sheet and they have committed a sending off offence then they aren't going on any of my team sheets. And that would be correct in law.

Law 3.6.

A player who is sent off:
• before submission of the team list cannot be named on the team list in
any capacity

This all depends how you (mis)interpret the ambiguity and contradictory wording of the law.

Unless/until a person is on the team list s/he can not be considered a player for that game and is not under the authority of the referee to be sent off. Is a player who is prevented from playing before the game starts a send off player? If so why doesn't the law just say send him off rather than 'prevent him from playing'?

That's why this is an interesting scenario, technically.

In practice, we know he is not partaking and being reported. The practical difference being, one means the team starts with a full quota of substitutes on the bench vs one short of quota.

 

[JamesL]

This all depends how you (mis)interpret the ambiguity and contradictory wording of the law.

Unless/until a person is on the team list s/he can not be considered a player for that game and is not under the authority of the referee to be sent off. Is a player who is prevented from playing before the game starts a send off player? If so why doesn't the law just say send him off rather than 'prevent him from playing'?

That's why this is an interesting scenario, technically.

In practice, we know he is not partaking and being reported. The practical difference being, one means the team starts with a full quota of substitutes on the bench vs one short of quota.

Yes he is. You don't need to be a player to be under the authority of the referee.
Whilst, as is usually the case, the writing and language leave a lot to be desired, the general premise of the law is quite clear.
From once you arrive, and enter the FOP (side note, first place I head to is FOP when I arrive to a game) for inspection your disciplinary powers, except for the showing of cards, are active.
So, no team sheet, someone who looks like a player, commits what would be a sending off offence, you make the same enquiries as you would, name, position (eg player/team official/spectator) and you then take the appropriate action (eg your day is done and reported, or report to team official to deal with and report the matter as appropriate).

 

[one]

I have no issues with a common sense approach here. I am sure your approach of "referee having authority over everyone" and "anyone who looks like a player is treated like a player" uses common sense and the right context.

My issue is with marrying that up with what's in law. For example as per post #2 if this happens before you first step onto the field, there is nothing you can do to stop them from playing. Or the section you pointed out regarding sent of players. I have already pointed out the contradiction on defining who a player is. But exclusion from teamsheet doesn't seem to apply to named substitutes and they have their own section below it with nothing mentioned about exclusion from teamsheet.

 

[Comedyjock]

Law 12
If, before entering the field of play at the start of the match, a player or team official commits a sending-off offence, the referee has the authority to prevent the player or team official taking part in the match (see Law 3.6); the referee will report any other misconduct.

 

[one]

Law 12
If, before entering the field of play at the start of the match, a player or team official commits a sending-off offence, the referee has the authority to prevent the player or team official taking part in the match (see Law 3.6); the referee will report any other misconduct.

Surly if the referee sees a 'player' spit at a person the at the shopping mall he can't stop the 'player' from playing the next day. The referee's authority starts at a point and that is defined in law 5 just above the same clause you have quoted from law 12. Now we have a few ambiguities.

- how do you determine if it's a 'player' (as defined by lotg) if you don't have a teamsheet?
- can that 'player' be subsequently added to the teamsheet? If not then how can he be a player if not on the teamsheet?
- what if the offence was before your authority starts
-what if it's a substitute and not a player (there is a distinction in the lotg)
Or a combination of above.

 

[JamesL]

Surly if the referee sees a 'player' spit at a person the at the shopping mall he can't stop the 'player' from playing the next day. The referee's authority starts at a point and that is defined in law 5 just above the same clause you have quoted from law 12. Now we have a few ambiguities.

- how do you determine if it's a 'player' (as defined by lotg) if you don't have a teamsheet?
- can that 'player' be subsequently added to the teamsheet? If not then how can he be a player if not on the teamsheet?
- what if the offence was before your authority starts
-what if it's a substitute and not a player (there is a distinction in the lotg)
Or a combination of above.

What does football expect.

The whole, before have entered pitch is easy to solve, as I do, immediately proceed to the pitch. Authority has started. Bingo.
The law should say, player, sub, To but the fact it doesn't, doesn't preclude them, it becomes not covered in law and we do what football expects within the framework.
I get what you are saying, laws can and should be worded better but feel we are trying to make a mountain from a mole hill.

 

[Anubis]

With the increase of emailed team sheets prematch, the senario is not to be taken lightly.
Could throw in similiar, you have teamlines emailed to you morning of game, park up, and first thing you see or hear when open car door is blue 6 ( they have turned up changed) using foul abusive language to green 9 , which would be a sending off in the game ( lets call it homophonic, racial, something which would provoke reaction)
or even lets keep it simple, blue 6 punches green 9.
You as ref have turned up the offender is clearly identifiable, a player, you have team sheet, but you are in the car park.
We letting blue 6 play, do we have authority to stop him?
Allow him to play but report the incident ?

 

[one]

What does football expect.

The whole, before have entered pitch is easy to solve, as I do, immediately proceed to the pitch. Authority has started. Bingo.
The law should say, player, sub, To but the fact it doesn't, doesn't preclude them, it becomes not covered in law and we do what football expects within the framework.
I get what you are saying, laws can and should be worded better but feel we are trying to make a mountain from a mole hill.

I think I have already agreed with you on the common sense approach. This thread is all about.... well, it's in the thread title. It wouldn't be interesting if there was a straight forward answer in the lotg.

 

[wazztie16]

With the increase of emailed team sheets prematch, the senario is not to be taken lightly.
Could throw in similiar, you have teamlines emailed to you morning of game, park up, and first thing you see or hear when open car door is blue 6 ( they have turned up changed) using foul abusive language to green 9 , which would be a sending off in the game ( lets call it homophonic, racial, something which would provoke reaction)
or even lets keep it simple, blue 6 punches green 9.
You as ref have turned up the offender is clearly identifiable, a player, you have team sheet, but you are in the car park.
We letting blue 6 play, do we have authority to stop him?
Allow him to play but report the incident ?

I think we'd have good reason to refuse him to play. Could even stretch to refuse to officiate on safety grounds?

Not sure I'd want to be disciplining a player in a match who I've seen punch or abuse someone before the game has begun, who knows what they would do if their team is losing and you're about to send them or their teammate off for DOGSO...

 

[PinnerPaul]

That's the bit I'm not sure about. Actually I should say I disagree with. You can't enforce a team on who they list on the team sheet. With no incidents, only persons on the list can partake in the match. With incidents, only persons on team list bar those whom you prevent can partake in the match. So in this case, they are free to put that person on the team list but the person can't partake.

And of course, either way it is reported.

We are talking lotg here. Comp rules may ask you to do additional things so long as they don't contradict lotg.

Not sure if worth pointing out and/or it changes anything, but don't forget although subs DO need to be named and that list given to the refereee as per LOTG, team sheets and their details are competition rules only - no mention of them in LOTG.