Doesn't come naturally - I'm not a Yorkie, I'm only doing missionary work here.
I'm originally a Yellow Belly! Any idea where I come from?
I'm originally a Yellow Belly! Any idea where I come from?
Open Age Instructions to Club linesmen
- Thread starter Jeff Jacklin
- Start date
Richthekeeper
Active Member
Lincolnshire I would assume.
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
Haywain, with all due respect, youre setting yourself up for a MASSIVE fall.
To allow CAR's to give;
Goals, foul throws, misconduct & penalties, you've killed yourself.
Ball goes near the goal, you're 18 yards away, CAR is on goal-line. From your view, ball is over the line. AR says no, 100% didn't go in. What do you do? Likewise, AR gives foul throw that you don't see. That's not a credible thing for you to be giving as you did not see it.
As for misconduct & penalties. No way. AR brings something to your attention. Says Player A (oppo) punched Player B (own team). Player A's team insist Player B initiated it and punched Player A first. What do you do? Equally, you send a report in to County saying CAR brought to your attention, you'll be hearing from County almost immediately about an appeal!
Whilst I don't agree with those who only use CAR's for in/out of play, I certainly don't use them for anything that is always a KMI (goals, penalties, red cards).
Personally, when I used them, they were asked to do in/out of play for throw's & corner/gk. I said if they thought it was offside, feel free to raise their flag, but appreciate that there might be a reason in law I choose to not go with the flag. I also specified that I didn't want them to indicate fouls and I would do all fouls.
Finally, I would say that unless they're relaively close to play (cannot expect CAR's to be perfectly placed), it was unlikely I'd take their advice as they're not in a suitable position.
Dan
First of all, wouldn't your Club A assistant be down the other end of the pitch?
As for smoking the cigarette or drinking the Strongbow - I'd have to question your match control as referee if this is happening so late in the match
You said that Club A striker was offside. Either you knew that as the referee or you didn't. I trust you've been getting wider and deeper having sussed out the failings of your volunteer CAR. If you had and you knew it, you would give offside. If you hadn't and you weren't sure, you would give the benefit of the doubt to the striker and award the goal. Nobody would be forcing you to do that.
We've had examples on here recently of FIFA assistant referees giving incorrect decisions that cost clubs millions of pounds in lost revenue.
Shall we get rid of them too?
Richthekeeper
Active Member
1. ok, amend the scenario, club B assistant disallows a perfectly valid "goal" for offside (or gives a penalty for an "offence" which you were unsighted for, which is scored) and relegates club A. is that better?
2. i'm there to enforce the LOAF not to tell CARs not to smoke.
3. whether i knew it or not doesn't change whether he was actually offside, only whether the decision made was correct.
4. the point is impartiality, i can't agree with your point here.
if you believe that all CARs perform their duties to the best of their ability then i'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. the point is it only takes one incident to call into question the integrity of the whole system, which is why some leagues (like mine) choose to remove the possibility of such an occurrence.
2. i'm there to enforce the LOAF not to tell CARs not to smoke.
3. whether i knew it or not doesn't change whether he was actually offside, only whether the decision made was correct.
4. the point is impartiality, i can't agree with your point here.
if you believe that all CARs perform their duties to the best of their ability then i'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. the point is it only takes one incident to call into question the integrity of the whole system, which is why some leagues (like mine) choose to remove the possibility of such an occurrence.
No fall as yet, Dan, though admittedly there's still plenty of time
What do i say to my CAR's about 'Goals'. Generally that, when a goal is scored, that I'll usually glance across to check whether there is a flag raised and, if there is, I'll have a word before deciding the restart. I'm happy to over-rule if needs be. in 60 games, one flag that i can remember. I overruled it.
Your scenario - 18 yards away. if this means 'behind' the ball, i.e. edge of the penalty area, if you say i'm certain that the ball has crossed the line, then i'll give the goal. if you say i'm not certain and the CAR is on the goal-line and he says it's not in, i'll go with my CAR every time
Take a look at Brighton v Watford and imagine being on the edge of the penalty area
By the way, what does KMI mean - first time i've seen it
Quite right - well done.
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
KMI - Key Match Incident.
Don't get me started on the Brighton-Watford game. (I've not watched that clip, but remember the game). I'm still 100% certain it went over the line!
If you're not sure, you're not gonna give the goal - regardless of CAR's position. (The reason I said CAR giving no goal cos if CAR gives goal, it's against own team!)
Haywain, I have no idea what your intentions & hopes are in refereeing, but if you do want to progress, I'd recommend altering your instructions to CAR's.
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
Yes, you have! Another KMI (re-take). With CAR's, your position on penalties should be somewhere close to/along the goal line to judge over the line or not!By the way, Dan, penalties is about me telling them where to stand if there's a penalty and to look out for keeper clearly of the line before kick is taken, whole of the ball / whole of the line.
I've probably just made it worse, haven't i
This from my R.A. website
Instructions to Club Assistant Referees
Here are some thoughts as to the content of your talk to Club Assistant Referees immediately prior to the game.
This document is simply intended to give you thoughts on the topics to be covered.
It is not comprehensive, and is aimed at Youth football, where Assistants are frequently parents.
· Identify both assistants and talk to them together
· Where to patrol – usually left backs
· To judge ball in or out of play
· Throw-ins – which direction – watch referee for signs of direction required
· Goal Kick or Corner or Goal
· Validity of throw – normal practice is to ask assistant to look at feet whilst you look at arms
· Fouls within your vicinity – area of credibility – only serious, not minor infringements (Providing you are confident of Assistant’s ability)
· Offside – ensure they understand the law
· Put flag down if I indicate not required (I have different view or playing advantage)
· Substitutions – indicate when required
· Maintain eye contact at all times, and follow me if I have already indicated decision
· Dissent directed at officials – wait until ball is next out of play and report dissent to referee
Be Professional in everything you do – show you know what you are doing.
Produced by Horsham Referees Society March 2013
More Comprehensive Pre-Match Instructions to Club Assistants.
Here is a more detailed list of guidelines which should be considered when giving instructions to your club assistants. Do not accept that an assistant who tells you that he does it every week, and knows what he is doing, even if he tries to give that impression. Remind them that the ultimate decision is yours, not theirs, they are there to help you, not control the game themselves.
Speak to both of your assistants together - introduce each other, they are your ‘team’. If you speak to them both at the same time, it means you only have to do it once, and both will receive exactly the same advice as the other.
What do you ask of them?
Predominantly, they will be responsible for assisting you in judging whether the ball is in or out of play, so it may be a good idea to quickly show them with a ball (the whole of the ball crossing the whole of the line). It is also good to ask them to follow your decision, especially if the ball has gone out for a throw furthest away from them, where hopefully you are closer. You do not want an assistant ‘guessing’ or disagreeing with your decision when he is so much further away than you. If they are unsure of direction, keep flag straight up until you indicate, and then follow.
Offsides:
This is quite a difficult subject to impart in a short space of time, so it is helpful if you can pick up the level of confidence they show when you start to speak about ‘what is’ and ‘what is not’ offside, if necessary by asking them. Remember, tell them that a player is not necessary offside just by being in that position, but that he has to subsequently play the ball and gain an advantage, or interfere with play and that the decision as to whether to award a free kick for offside is yours. If you decide to let play continue, tell the players why - ‘Play on, offside player not interfering etc. or ‘Play on, goalkeepers got the ball’. Put your flag down once I have indicated that I am not stopping play. Always remember to acknowledge your assistant, and thank him - make him continue to feel part of the team. This is where it is imperative you try and get your positioning right. Remember to keep the ball between yourself and your assistant as much as possible, you will spot his flag a lot earlier than if you have your back to him. For the first part of the game, extend your patrol zone so that you are deeper and wider than perhaps is normal. You will be able to see what position your assistant is tending to keep, and whether he is correctly calling offside. If you are satisfied that he is doing a good job then you can feel more confident in subsequent decisions he is making. Conversely you can also continue to extend your patrol zone if you can see that the assistant is not keeping up with play, or keeping in line with the 2nd last defender and be more readily seen to be taking an active role in deciding ‘offsides’ yourself.
Infringements:
Even at higher levels of football, when a referee has two neutral, qualified assistants, you will find that the majority of infringements are given by the referee, even if the assistant is closer. With club assistants, it is even more your responsibility to give infringements. Your positioning should be such that you are close enough to the action to decide when a foul has been committed. The only thing you can ask them to consider, is ‘where am I, am I close enough to be making that decision. Good communication at times like this is a must as it lets your assistant know that you’ve seen what is happening and at that time are prepared to let the game go on.
Player Behaviour:
If you see a player giving one of your Assistant’s grief, even from one of his own side, protect him - he is part of your team. Any dissent shown to him should be considered as being dissent shown to yourself and you must be seen to take action of one sort or another, the relevant action being dependent on the level of dissent shown.
Don’t forget at the end of the game to thank them. It’s always easier to control a game with two good assistants; we don’t want to lose them.
Instructions to Club Assistant Referees
Here are some thoughts as to the content of your talk to Club Assistant Referees immediately prior to the game.
This document is simply intended to give you thoughts on the topics to be covered.
It is not comprehensive, and is aimed at Youth football, where Assistants are frequently parents.
· Identify both assistants and talk to them together
· Where to patrol – usually left backs
· To judge ball in or out of play
· Throw-ins – which direction – watch referee for signs of direction required
· Goal Kick or Corner or Goal
· Validity of throw – normal practice is to ask assistant to look at feet whilst you look at arms
· Fouls within your vicinity – area of credibility – only serious, not minor infringements (Providing you are confident of Assistant’s ability)
· Offside – ensure they understand the law
· Put flag down if I indicate not required (I have different view or playing advantage)
· Substitutions – indicate when required
· Maintain eye contact at all times, and follow me if I have already indicated decision
· Dissent directed at officials – wait until ball is next out of play and report dissent to referee
Be Professional in everything you do – show you know what you are doing.
Produced by Horsham Referees Society March 2013
More Comprehensive Pre-Match Instructions to Club Assistants.
Here is a more detailed list of guidelines which should be considered when giving instructions to your club assistants. Do not accept that an assistant who tells you that he does it every week, and knows what he is doing, even if he tries to give that impression. Remind them that the ultimate decision is yours, not theirs, they are there to help you, not control the game themselves.
Speak to both of your assistants together - introduce each other, they are your ‘team’. If you speak to them both at the same time, it means you only have to do it once, and both will receive exactly the same advice as the other.
What do you ask of them?
Predominantly, they will be responsible for assisting you in judging whether the ball is in or out of play, so it may be a good idea to quickly show them with a ball (the whole of the ball crossing the whole of the line). It is also good to ask them to follow your decision, especially if the ball has gone out for a throw furthest away from them, where hopefully you are closer. You do not want an assistant ‘guessing’ or disagreeing with your decision when he is so much further away than you. If they are unsure of direction, keep flag straight up until you indicate, and then follow.
Offsides:
This is quite a difficult subject to impart in a short space of time, so it is helpful if you can pick up the level of confidence they show when you start to speak about ‘what is’ and ‘what is not’ offside, if necessary by asking them. Remember, tell them that a player is not necessary offside just by being in that position, but that he has to subsequently play the ball and gain an advantage, or interfere with play and that the decision as to whether to award a free kick for offside is yours. If you decide to let play continue, tell the players why - ‘Play on, offside player not interfering etc. or ‘Play on, goalkeepers got the ball’. Put your flag down once I have indicated that I am not stopping play. Always remember to acknowledge your assistant, and thank him - make him continue to feel part of the team. This is where it is imperative you try and get your positioning right. Remember to keep the ball between yourself and your assistant as much as possible, you will spot his flag a lot earlier than if you have your back to him. For the first part of the game, extend your patrol zone so that you are deeper and wider than perhaps is normal. You will be able to see what position your assistant is tending to keep, and whether he is correctly calling offside. If you are satisfied that he is doing a good job then you can feel more confident in subsequent decisions he is making. Conversely you can also continue to extend your patrol zone if you can see that the assistant is not keeping up with play, or keeping in line with the 2nd last defender and be more readily seen to be taking an active role in deciding ‘offsides’ yourself.
Infringements:
Even at higher levels of football, when a referee has two neutral, qualified assistants, you will find that the majority of infringements are given by the referee, even if the assistant is closer. With club assistants, it is even more your responsibility to give infringements. Your positioning should be such that you are close enough to the action to decide when a foul has been committed. The only thing you can ask them to consider, is ‘where am I, am I close enough to be making that decision. Good communication at times like this is a must as it lets your assistant know that you’ve seen what is happening and at that time are prepared to let the game go on.
Player Behaviour:
If you see a player giving one of your Assistant’s grief, even from one of his own side, protect him - he is part of your team. Any dissent shown to him should be considered as being dissent shown to yourself and you must be seen to take action of one sort or another, the relevant action being dependent on the level of dissent shown.
Don’t forget at the end of the game to thank them. It’s always easier to control a game with two good assistants; we don’t want to lose them.
haywain, your comments 6-7 posts above this one are amusing in parts. As you've already figured out, at a throw-in, it's far more important for the referee to concentrate on the actions of the 21 players inside the boundary lines, then the 1 outside/on them. Also there is nothing more annoying than a referee who becomes intense on the correctness of the taking of throw-ins while making mistakes or missing other more obvious offences which result in injury or actually impact on the outcome of the game. I'm not for one moment suggesting this referee is you BUT when working on your own, you have to play the percentages. So do you want the fuss caused by an over zealous but incorrect club assistant or do you want to note all the penal offences and deal with them correctly? Work on the high impact stuff first, then look at incorrectly taken throw-ins.
Jeff welcome to 1974 (the last time the West Riding actually existed as an administrative area, i.e. before the introduction of Metropolitan County Councils and the disappearance of the county of Rutland).
Richthekeeper, I agree with most of your sentiments, except I think you meant to say that club assistants are not as impartial as the match referee. Also they may not have the same standards of integrity when decisions impact on the outcome of games which have a major influence on their clubs success. Like hate, cheat is such a strong word to use.
Jeff welcome to 1974 (the last time the West Riding actually existed as an administrative area, i.e. before the introduction of Metropolitan County Councils and the disappearance of the county of Rutland).
Richthekeeper, I agree with most of your sentiments, except I think you meant to say that club assistants are not as impartial as the match referee. Also they may not have the same standards of integrity when decisions impact on the outcome of games which have a major influence on their clubs success. Like hate, cheat is such a strong word to use.
I've only ever had 1 CAR accused of cheating... The accusation was a load of rubbish, personally I've never come across a CAR cheating and from reading that presume you never use them
As if by magic ... official advice appears.
The following is taken from the latest edition of the Refereeing Magazine, which is a joint publication by the RA and The FA.
Working with assistant referees attached to clubs:
Recognising that assistant referees attached to clubs are not used in every area of the country where assistant referees attached to clubs are used, a briefing of 2-3 minutes is usually sufficient.
The following is a guide to pre-match instructions, although offside judgement is something that in some areas of the country referees do not request assistance with:
Greet the club assistants and provide them with a flag each
Advise them which touchline they will operate on (usually with their own left back)
Ask them to indicate ball in/out of play (throw-in, corner kick, goal kick)
Ask them to indicate with a clearly raised flag when a player is in an offside position and is ‘active’ i.e. plays the ball or is the only player who is clearly moving to play the ball
Remind them that you will judge all challenges and they should not indicate any free kicks
Remind them that you may make a judgement to acknowledge a flag signal and continue with the game.
You should do this with a clear arm signal and voice communication
Thank them for agreeing to perform the role
If an assistant referee attached to a club is a qualified referee, he or she is not in an official appointed to the game and therefore the above is still their sole responsibility
The following is taken from the latest edition of the Refereeing Magazine, which is a joint publication by the RA and The FA.
Working with assistant referees attached to clubs:
Recognising that assistant referees attached to clubs are not used in every area of the country where assistant referees attached to clubs are used, a briefing of 2-3 minutes is usually sufficient.
The following is a guide to pre-match instructions, although offside judgement is something that in some areas of the country referees do not request assistance with:
Greet the club assistants and provide them with a flag each
Advise them which touchline they will operate on (usually with their own left back)
Ask them to indicate ball in/out of play (throw-in, corner kick, goal kick)
Ask them to indicate with a clearly raised flag when a player is in an offside position and is ‘active’ i.e. plays the ball or is the only player who is clearly moving to play the ball
Remind them that you will judge all challenges and they should not indicate any free kicks
Remind them that you may make a judgement to acknowledge a flag signal and continue with the game.
You should do this with a clear arm signal and voice communication
Thank them for agreeing to perform the role
If an assistant referee attached to a club is a qualified referee, he or she is not in an official appointed to the game and therefore the above is still their sole responsibility
MattyontheWhistle
RefChat Addict
So, reading the posts above, do you get your CARs to go with their own left back for the whole game? ie, changing sides at half time?
I've never done that with CARs, they stay on the same line throughout same as Neutrals, so both sides get the 'benefit' of their wisdom.
Also, I do think that saying they 'cheat' is a little strong, however, they are, without a doubt, watching the game through a partisan supporters glasses, and not a neutral official's eyes and I for one, would not be 100% confident that their loyalties aren't clouding their judgement of KMIs.
The Referee has the sole control of the match, with CARs or NARs, with neutrals, he has a pair of assistants he can be confident in and who...well....assist.....with Club ARs, he has a pair of assistants of unknown quality, which means he can't rely on them in the same way, and has to take responsibility for the decisions during the game - hang on, he IS responsible for the decisions on the game because he is the referee.
So, NARs or CARs is no different, it's just that you have fewer reliable eyes looking at the incidents and there is only one person to blame for getting it wrong, as opposed to three.
In OA games, as long as the players are aware that the NARs are only doing in/out of play - I think that's the key.
I've never done that with CARs, they stay on the same line throughout same as Neutrals, so both sides get the 'benefit' of their wisdom.
Also, I do think that saying they 'cheat' is a little strong, however, they are, without a doubt, watching the game through a partisan supporters glasses, and not a neutral official's eyes and I for one, would not be 100% confident that their loyalties aren't clouding their judgement of KMIs.
The Referee has the sole control of the match, with CARs or NARs, with neutrals, he has a pair of assistants he can be confident in and who...well....assist.....with Club ARs, he has a pair of assistants of unknown quality, which means he can't rely on them in the same way, and has to take responsibility for the decisions during the game - hang on, he IS responsible for the decisions on the game because he is the referee.
So, NARs or CARs is no different, it's just that you have fewer reliable eyes looking at the incidents and there is only one person to blame for getting it wrong, as opposed to three.
In OA games, as long as the players are aware that the NARs are only doing in/out of play - I think that's the key.
All this discussion about the impartiality of referees reminds me of a match when I had two CAR's and one of them was known to me as he was a qualified referee and had lined for me before in a County Cup game.
It was because I knew him and because he was a referee that I sent a player off on his say-so for an off-the-ball incident that I hadn't seen.
The club subsequently appealed the red card and I went to the hearing having contacted my witness and invited him to support me there.
He didn't turn up at the hearing.
I was unable to confirm any of the incident, answer any questions put to me and was hung out to dry.
The red card was rescinded.
My later phone messages and emails to him were never returned.
Since then I have never taken a CAR's word on such important matters regardless of their credibility and experience.
Look after No.1 and make sure that you are never put in the position I was by a 'colleague'.
It was because I knew him and because he was a referee that I sent a player off on his say-so for an off-the-ball incident that I hadn't seen.
The club subsequently appealed the red card and I went to the hearing having contacted my witness and invited him to support me there.
He didn't turn up at the hearing.
I was unable to confirm any of the incident, answer any questions put to me and was hung out to dry.
The red card was rescinded.
My later phone messages and emails to him were never returned.
Since then I have never taken a CAR's word on such important matters regardless of their credibility and experience.
Look after No.1 and make sure that you are never put in the position I was by a 'colleague'.
This is pretty much what I do (Surrey FA).
I can't believe some people just ask CARs to do in and out of play in youth football. Maybe in open age as the subs can rarely be bothered to move (and they cheat).
I do the Surrey Youth League which has league teams youth sides (girls and boys) and I rarely find an assistant that isn't bothered, in fact about half of them are qualified refs. And only a couple of times have I seen cheating...generally from the parents that look least happy to be a CAR.
In my pre-qualifed days I was a CAR for my daughters team and was never told "just in and out of play".
I sometimes even go further with throws and ask the CAR to look at feet so I can look at the throwing action for a foul throw. Or if both CAR's are qualified then I ask them to flag for any obvious foul that I may have missed (e.g.for a reason like glancing to see if a player down is injured and missing a blatant handball).
Ref Groupie
Member
Here on the Isle of Man refs have to manage without club assistants