A&H

Hearts vs Hibs - why no red?

mctones

mctones

Member
Hi All

Sent off a player today for handball in penalty area that stopped definate goal, coaches shouting it should be yellow and cited the hearts vs hibs game.

I thought law was pretty clear, red card handball dogso, any thoughts why this is yellow and not red?


watch from about 1.30

thanks
 
The Referee Store
If that's handball then let's stop messing around and make ALL ball/hand contact handball.
Ball is smashed in and deflects off his team mate standing 2 yards away...

Also the placement of that monitor is outrageous. Might as well have it in the stand ffs.

As for the card colour, hard to tell from the replay whther the deflection is taking it wide. Maybe just enough doubt to make it a caution?
 
mctones said:
Ref blows whistle just before goal scored, so cannot undo that one.
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Nah, the ref correctly waits until just after the ball has gone into the net before whistling (slow it down to 0.25x), not entirely sure what for though - there was no flag, maybe the holding just after the free kick is taken?

I'd say the deflection from the defender before the handball is probably what makes it a yellow, as it would otherwise be going wide.
 
bester said:
Not sure why it wasn't a goal as the deliberate handball resets offside position.
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Depends if it's deliberate handball or making unnaturally bigger, my gut is the latter as he is leaning towards the ball and the arm is a little outstretched, given the speed of shot and deflection of team mate hard to say if this is deliberate, as in, intentional.

Unnaturally bigger would make it a deflection and not a deliberate play in the new clarifications so not resetting the offside.
 
JamesL said:
Unnaturally bigger would make it a deflection and not a deliberate play in the new clarifications so not resetting the offside.
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I have less confidence than you do that IFAB meant to divide handling into two separate buckets of whether it counts as a play to clear IS restrictions. But I agree that, as written, it does treat deliberate HB differently from biggering HBs. Part of my doubt as to whether that is intended is that biggering was a kind of deliberate handling before it was added as a separate bullet point And doubt that IFAB really wanted Rs to be drawing that distinction. And if they really wanted that distinction, they should be express about it, not have us tease it out from the way they wrote it. But IFAB and clear writing have never gone well together.
 
Great clip.
I think the referee blows after the ball is in the net and signals goal.
Then there are lines on the screen that show an attacker is offside and leaning against the defender who handles - when the shot occurs - surely this is an offside offence.
Then the handball - I think we've discussed before that, if the GK is behind a player handling a shot on goal, then it's yellow as it is not DoG denial of goal.
TBH I am totally confused here about the referee's timing with the whistle, goal signal and why no offside???
 
Believe the referee signals for a foul in the box hence the confusion. Basis given is this referee doesnt normally signal for goals as well as where he goes to after signalling.

Not sure the whistle goes after the balls in the net, otherwise the goal could have stood.

However, no surprises with VAR here at the moment
 
socal lurker said:
I have less confidence than you do that IFAB meant to divide handling into two separate buckets of whether it counts as a play to clear IS restrictions. But I agree that, as written, it does treat deliberate HB differently from biggering HBs. Part of my doubt as to whether that is intended is that biggering was a kind of deliberate handling before it was added as a separate bullet point And doubt that IFAB really wanted Rs to be drawing that distinction. And if they really wanted that distinction, they should be express about it, not have us tease it out from the way they wrote it. But IFAB and clear writing have never gone well together.
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I was really intrigued to see what they would say as you do raise a fair point:

"Good morning

Thank you for your e mail

As the Law clearly states, this provision only applies to deliberate handball

Best wishes
The IFAB"

This was in response to:

"Dear IFAB,

Law 11 states:
A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball, including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

For the purposes of offside, does this apply to any handball offence? For example a player making themselves unnaturally bigger is penalised for a handball offence even when not a deliberate handball. Should that be considered as a deliberate play or a deflection when also judging if a possible offside offence has occurred?"
 
santa sangria said:
Great clip.
I think the referee blows after the ball is in the net and signals goal.
Then there are lines on the screen that show an attacker is offside and leaning against the defender who handles - when the shot occurs - surely this is an offside offence.
Then the handball - I think we've discussed before that, if the GK is behind a player handling a shot on goal, then it's yellow as it is not DoG denial of goal.
TBH I am totally confused here about the referee's timing with the whistle, goal signal and why no offside???
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At the point the ball is played there is no contact or challenging between the handler and the player in offside position. No offside offence occurs until after the handball when the player in offside position plays the ball and scores a goal.
If you watch from the behind goal view it shows more clearly than the offside line drawing view which presents depth perception issues.

The only outcome here is a penalty kick as the goal scored is after an offside offence if, as I think, the handling is for making unnaturally bigger, as the handball is a deflection and not a deliberate play. See my above post.
 
On another board, I suggested when this was implemented that it was a new dichotomy, and most thought I was crazy.

my favorite part of the answer is that the Law clearly states . . . how many refs even remotely considered that is what it might mean?
 
socal lurker said:
On another board, I suggested when this was implemented that it was a new dichotomy, and most thought I was crazy.

my favorite part of the answer is that the Law clearly states . . . how many refs even remotely considered that is what it might mean?
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🙋

I bet if they were to go back and read it now they would get there.

Perhaps there was some explanation in the change holding them back, as we know, and I have demonstrated to IFAB that once a new iteration of laws of the game is published and an explanation of a change from a previous iteration is lost what is left can mean something completely different.
 
Law Change for 2020/21.

At the time of this guidance the handball law was different and there was a much lower bar for deliberate play.


"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent), including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

Explanation Clarification that deliberate handball by a defender is considered ‘deliberate play’ for offside. As ‘legal’ deliberate play (e.g. a kick or header) causes a player in an offside position to no longer be offside, ‘illegal’ play should have the same outcome."
 
bester said:
Law Change for 2020/21.

At the time of this guidance the handball law was different and there was a much lower bar for deliberate play.


"A player in an offside position receiving the ball from an opponent who deliberately plays the ball (except from a deliberate save by any opponent), including by deliberate handball, is not considered to have gained an advantage, unless it was a deliberate save by any opponent.

Explanation Clarification that deliberate handball by a defender is considered ‘deliberate play’ for offside. As ‘legal’ deliberate play (e.g. a kick or header) causes a player in an offside position to no longer be offside, ‘illegal’ play should have the same outcome."
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I rest my case.
 
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