Have I Missed A Trick?

[Kes]

Okay, just wanted a bit of constructive input on something that occurred on my match on Saturday because I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not.

Feisty game, plenty of physicality, some legal, some not. Home team 2-0 down at half time.

Away team take their foot off the gas second half and eventually the Home team run out 3-2 winners with a late "injury time" goal.
Three standard reckless challenge cautions during the match and also my first ever C2 (Sin Bin) for dissent.

Final whistle goes. As I'm leaving the field, an individual, wearing an away team tracksuit shouts at me (and audible enough for several bystanders to hear and see) "Ref! You are the worst referee I have ever seen, you should be ashamed of yourself". This has taken place on the clubhouse side of the pitch where he is stood amongst the seating to watch the match and he is around 5 yards away from me when he shouts it. - not from the dug out on the other side you understand. Rather angered and slightly humiliated by this, I simply glanced at him for a second or two before hearing the voice of a fellow referee stood near, watching the match say "Ignore it mate, just go in" which I did. The individual's outburst was, I felt, bordering abusive, and certainly insulting by default because of the words used.

So, it's only a minute or two later when I'm back in the changing room still in self-seethe mode, that I realise that the person in question was actually one of the players!! He'd played the first half, been subbed at half time and instead of rejoining his team mates in the dug out, simply got changed and went to watch the match as a spectator!!

Questions are:

1. Can he do that? I had it in my head that a player named on the team sheet and later subbed, had to remain situated as a sub with the others for the duration of the game. I'm unsure now.

2. Could/should I have shown him a red card? Like I said, by the time I realised he was a player - it was too late and I was back in the changing room.

Not very often I'm caught on the hop so I'd appreciate any thoughts/opinions providing they're polite and non-derogatory.

 

[es1]

answer to 2 is quite simple, if it was a subbed player who said it then a red card would have been appropriate (or yellow if deemed as dissent)

1 i'm not sure of, and nothing i have ever bothered myself with at amateur football. if a subbed player wants to go stand with their mates / 'crowd' etc then i'm not going to stop them

 

[Kes]

answer to 2 is quite simple, if it was a subbed player who said it then a red card would have been appropriate (or yellow if deemed as dissent)

Yeah, that was obviously what occurred to me (too late though unfortunately). I suppose my point was, that has his status as a player/sub ended because he's now dressed in normal clothes (tracksuit top aside) and stood amongst the spectators? Had I been 90 seconds sharper, I could have whipped out a card of my choice but wouldn't want to look a bit of a tube if I couldn't do it legally?!!

1 i'm not sure of, and nothing i have ever bothered myself with at amateur football. if a subbed player wants to go stand with their mates / 'crowd' etc then i'm not going to stop them

Fair point. Not something I've had cause to look at in the past either.

 

[es1]

Fair point. Not something I've had cause to look at in the past either.

i'd suggest you'd be 100% supported, imagine it were a player you'd sent off who'd gone away, got showered and changed and come back to watch!

an unusual situation for sure

 

[spuddy1878]

If he had said what he said on the pitch then hes minimum going in the sin bin possibly depending on referee-mood-atmosphere etc could be a red card.

I think if it was me id probably just have ignored first comment and done what you did, giving him a yellow or red card at that stage would have probably escalated the incident further.

 

[Big Cat]

Okay, just wanted a bit of constructive input on something that occurred on my match on Saturday because I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not.

Feisty game, plenty of physicality, some legal, some not. Home team 2-0 down at half time.

Away team take their foot off the gas second half and eventually the Home team run out 3-2 winners with a late "injury time" goal.
Three standard reckless challenge cautions during the match and also my first ever C2 (Sin Bin) for dissent.

Final whistle goes. As I'm leaving the field, an individual, wearing an away team tracksuit shouts at me (and audible enough for several bystanders to hear and see) "Ref! You are the worst referee I have ever seen, you should be ashamed of yourself". This has taken place on the clubhouse side of the pitch where he is stood amongst the seating to watch the match and he is around 5 yards away from me when he shouts it. - not from the dug out on the other side you understand. Rather angered and slightly humiliated by this, I simply glanced at him for a second or two before hearing the voice of a fellow referee stood near, watching the match say "Ignore it mate, just go in" which I did. The individual's outburst was, I felt, bordering abusive, and certainly insulting by default because of the words used.

So, it's only a minute or two later when I'm back in the changing room still in self-seethe mode, that I realise that the person in question was actually one of the players!! He'd played the first half, been subbed at half time and instead of rejoining his team mates in the dug out, simply got changed and went to watch the match as a spectator!!

Questions are:

1. Can he do that? I had it in my head that a player named on the team sheet and later subbed, had to remain situated as a sub with the others for the duration of the game. I'm unsure now.

2. Could/should I have shown him a red card? Like I said, by the time I realised he was a player - it was too late and I was back in the changing room.

Not very often I'm caught on the hop so I'd appreciate any thoughts/opinions providing they're polite and non-derogatory.

In agreement that a substituted player is a substituted player, regardless of whether they're in the dugout, treatment room, player's lounge, spectator's stand or hospital (which is where you might have put him )
As you haven't left the FOP following the final whistle, it's a regular dismissal (involving identifying the player) signalled by a red card
Once the moment had passed, although an ER could be submitted, any appeal would inevitably be upheld due to uncertainty surrounding identity

 

[Kes]

In agreement that a substituted player is a substituted player, regardless of whether they're in the dugout, treatment room, player's lounge, spectator's stand or hospital (which is where you might have put him )
As you haven't left the FOP following the final whistle, it's a regular dismissal (involving identifying the player) signalled by a red card
Once the moment had passed, although an ER could be submitted, any appeal would inevitably be upheld due to uncertainty surrounding identity

I'm 99% sure who it was. My problem was that it only hit me a minute or so later when, as you say the moment had passed. In any event, that's why my thread has it's title. I was pretty sure I had missed a trick but, as with most things refereeing, I like to consult the learned membership on here before labelling myself a pratt for not switching on at the time!!

At least it's something I can be mindful of in the event of a repeat one day ....

 

[deusex]

If he had said what he said on the pitch then hes minimum going in the sin bin possibly depending on referee-mood-atmosphere etc could be a red card.

I think if it was me id probably just have ignored first comment and done what you did, giving him a yellow or red card at that stage would have probably escalated the incident further.

So you'd shirk your resonsibility beacuse you don't want to deal with the fallout?
Next week's ref will have to clean up after you!
My yellow card would be out and I'd be PRAYING he opened his mouth again so I could throw a cherry on top!

 

[Big Cat]

I'm 99% sure who it was. My problem was that it only hit me a minute or so later when, as you say the moment had passed. In any event, that's why my thread has it's title. I was pretty sure I had missed a trick but, as with most things refereeing, I like to consult the learned membership on here before labelling myself a pratt for not switching on at the time!!

At least it's something I can be mindful of in the event of a repeat one day ....

To put it into perspective, a player disputed a caution I issued recently and my CFA upheld the appeal based on the fact that I couldn't recall the moment in time when the player gave me his specific name, despite me remembering everything else about the incident and roughly what the lad looked like. Basically, if we're not absolutely water tight with stuff, the player can appeal successfully with ease
Edit: I cautioned 9 players in two days, so remembering as much as i did was stretching things

 

[Kes]

So you'd shirk your resonsibility beacuse you don't want to deal with the fallout?
Next week's ref will have to clean up after you!
My yellow card would be out and I'd be PRAYING he opened his mouth again so I could throw a cherry on top!

All comments and opinions welcomed to be honest.

My uncertainty was around whether or not I could still view/treat him as a player even though his involvement in the match was over and he was effectively a bystander/spectator. I wasn't aware of anything laid down that says I couldn't but also didn't feel I knew for sure either way.

 

[deusex]

All comments and opinions welcomed to be honest.

My uncertainty was around whether or not I could still view/treat him as a player even though his involvement in the match was over and he was effectively a bystander/spectator. I wasn't aware of anything laid down that says I couldn't but also didn't feel I knew for sure either way.

Sorry Kes, that was aimed at Spud.
I'd have put a caution in for him when I got home. He'll know what it's for when it arrives...

 

[Kes]

Sorry Kes, that was aimed at Spud.
I'd have put a caution in for him when I got home. He'll know what it's for when it arrives...

Yeah I know it wasn't for me mate.

Maybe he's keen to avoid anything confrontational which may be fraught with error on the referee's part - particularly after the game has ended? Not everybody's the same I guess. For my own part, it takes a lot to put me off my stride - and had I felt sure of my "legal" ground I'd most certainly have pulled out the (red) card. Yellow for dissent is a Sin Bin which couldn't have happened at that point and so I'd have gone with Abusive and Insulting and let him try and appeal it. Too late now though - hence the thread title mate.

 

[Big Cat]

I can possibly see @spuddy1878 's point if you were faced with escalating a threateningly hostile predicament
However, it sounds like you were referring to a lone wolf, so a dismissal would've been apt

 

[Kes]

I can possibly see @spuddy1878 's point if you were faced with escalating a threateningly hostile predicament
However, it sounds like you were referring to a lone wolf, so a dismissal would've been apt

Not quite. I had a bit of a problem with a complete spoonhead of a CAR (same team) who became more of a hindrance than a help as time went on. So there was some "hostility" in the air I guess but only from the losing side. The home side were delighted with my performance (funny old thing). Luckily, as mentioned earlier, I had a refereeing colleague (Level 4) there watching passively who also validated all the decisions I'd made, including the time added on for subs/injuries etc (almost 7 minutes) and who agreed that the match would have descended into complete rat **** had a "weaker" referee been out there.
Had I instantly recognised this gobshite as a player and felt technically able to dismiss him - I would have. The way that it happened, I feel most referees would have too.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

Me sending 2 off whilst walking from the field let to my infamous FA London battle, It wasn't what they said that had me hopping it was what they left behind!!! Back on the OP, etch his face and name in your banks and see what turns up next time.... It shouldn't take long to get ones revenge!!!

 

[afronaut81]

I think it's a missed trick. You can definitely card a substituted player and sounds like you're still on the FOP.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

I waited 2 seasons for one Herbert..... you can run but you cant hide, and this big lummox didn't forget!!!!

 

[one]

Okay, just wanted a bit of constructive input on something that occurred on my match on Saturday because I'm not sure if I did the right thing or not.

Feisty game, plenty of physicality, some legal, some not. Home team 2-0 down at half time.

Away team take their foot off the gas second half and eventually the Home team run out 3-2 winners with a late "injury time" goal.
Three standard reckless challenge cautions during the match and also my first ever C2 (Sin Bin) for dissent.

Final whistle goes. As I'm leaving the field, an individual, wearing an away team tracksuit shouts at me (and audible enough for several bystanders to hear and see) "Ref! You are the worst referee I have ever seen, you should be ashamed of yourself". This has taken place on the clubhouse side of the pitch where he is stood amongst the seating to watch the match and he is around 5 yards away from me when he shouts it. - not from the dug out on the other side you understand. Rather angered and slightly humiliated by this, I simply glanced at him for a second or two before hearing the voice of a fellow referee stood near, watching the match say "Ignore it mate, just go in" which I did. The individual's outburst was, I felt, bordering abusive, and certainly insulting by default because of the words used.

So, it's only a minute or two later when I'm back in the changing room still in self-seethe mode, that I realise that the person in question was actually one of the players!! He'd played the first half, been subbed at half time and instead of rejoining his team mates in the dug out, simply got changed and went to watch the match as a spectator!!

Questions are:

1. Can he do that? I had it in my head that a player named on the team sheet and later subbed, had to remain situated as a sub with the others for the duration of the game. I'm unsure now.

2. Could/should I have shown him a red card? Like I said, by the time I realised he was a player - it was too late and I was back in the changing room.

Not very often I'm caught on the hop so I'd appreciate any thoughts/opinions providing they're polite and non-derogatory.

1. Yes (by implication i think). Law 3.3:"... the player being substituted:...must go immediately to the technical area or dressing room and..." However he does remain and a substituted player and subject to the same jurisdictions/authority.

2. Yes, if you realised who he was at the time of the offence and you felt offended/insulted. In retrospective, I'd report him for a send off offence (if you still think it was offensive/insulting) and explain the circumstances in an extraordinary report (I think that is the way things are done where you are, where I am it is called an incident report). I would not make any mention of how sure you are about who he is.

 

[GraemeS]

Yeah I know it wasn't for me mate.

Maybe he's keen to avoid anything confrontational which may be fraught with error on the referee's part - particularly after the game has ended? Not everybody's the same I guess. For my own part, it takes a lot to put me off my stride - and had I felt sure of my "legal" ground I'd most certainly have pulled out the (red) card. Yellow for dissent is a Sin Bin which couldn't have happened at that point and so I'd have gone with Abusive and Insulting and let him try and appeal it. Too late now though - hence the thread title mate.

It's a small detail, but I'm fairly sure a yellow card for dissent from a substitute still counts as a yellow card as it would have in previous seasons - complete with £10 fine and a notch on their disciplinary record. So showing a dissent yellow card to a substitute isn't a complete waste of time if that's what you consider the appropriate punishment.

 

[RustyRef]

A sub can do what they want when taken off, stand with team mates, go and get changed, even go home, so no problem there.

In terms of potential actions that is down to the individual referee. I don't think it would trigger me going for red, I might yellow or I might use a sarky comment back (yes, I know I shouldn't but sometimes it feels too good an opportunity not to). I don't buy the last week's ref comment, and if anything a belittling comment in front of his team mates is probably going to be more of a deterrent than a caution would be.