Handball
- Thread starter ref11
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Jacob Walukiewicz
Active Member
I personally like the 'unnatural position' point of view as it normally entails a blocking of the ball that is in control of the player. There are situations however where I believe you cannot apply this logic. It's generally a tough one
Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
I would just apply the Laws of the Game as written. Only punish deliberate handling and take into consideration what the Laws tell you to:
Under the pre-1997 Laws, deliberate handling was defined as "carries, strikes or propels the ball with his hand or arm." Maybe that's a bit too far the other way but I would prefer that to the idea that any contact is an offence, which some people (even, dare I say, some referees) seem to subscribe to.
I personally don't like the "unnatural position" criterion - it's too vague and too difficult to define with any certainty. I prefer to look at whether the player moved the hand towards the ball or, having had enough time to move the hand out of the way of the ball, did not do so. Another consideration is whether the player deliberately prolonged an initially accidental contact in order to control the ball.
Under the pre-1997 Laws, deliberate handling was defined as "carries, strikes or propels the ball with his hand or arm." Maybe that's a bit too far the other way but I would prefer that to the idea that any contact is an offence, which some people (even, dare I say, some referees) seem to subscribe to.
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Peter Grove
RefChat Addict
I've quite often seen a quote that goes something along the lines of, "If you never gave a single handball, you'd probably be right about 90% of the time." Maybe that's a slight exaggeration but I don't think it's too wide of the mark (maybe closer to 80%, as Deusex says).
I heard a similar one last year from a high level USSF intructor:
You can count the number of deliberate handlings that should be called in a profesional/international game on one hand. You can also count the number of incorrectly ones called on that same hand.
richard ramjane
RefChat Addict
it flabbergasts me how many shouts for handball there actually are in a game
I like the working of that, propels the ball with hand or arm (though I would add "either intentionally or unintentionally").
I think it would make calling hand ball easier and lead to less controversy, especially where a player gains control of the ball with an obvious but unintentional hand ball that you currently cannot penalise.
I disagree.
If a player uses his arms to "make himself bigger" then if the ball hits his hands it's a handball, he is deliberately putting his hand a place to gain an advantage (to stop the ball being played through there).
Similarly if a player jumps towards the ball with his arms flailing "making himself bigger", then he is deliberately blocking the ball with his arms/hands.
I think Clattenburg was correct with the penalty against Sterling (Spurs v Man City) in his interpretation, however, in slow mo it wasn't 100% clear if it did hit Sterling's outstretch arms.
If a player uses his arms to "make himself bigger" then if the ball hits his hands it's a handball, he is deliberately putting his hand a place to gain an advantage (to stop the ball being played through there).
Similarly if a player jumps towards the ball with his arms flailing "making himself bigger", then he is deliberately blocking the ball with his arms/hands.
I think Clattenburg was correct with the penalty against Sterling (Spurs v Man City) in his interpretation, however, in slow mo it wasn't 100% clear if it did hit Sterling's outstretch arms.
I gave 2 or 3 handballs last night (and didn't give 20+ appeals). One the player moved his arm to cradle the ball which he hadn't controlled well on his thigh. One of the others was a player leaning in and the ball hitting his bicep. We had a near identical one where another player did almost exactly the same except the ball hit the deltoid (i.e. the shoulder)
deusex
RefChat Addict
Well we disagree there.
Sterling's arms were exactly where I'd expect a player jumping across to try and block a cross to be.
I here this 3 times this season:
"HANDBALL!"
Me: "Clearly an accident."
"But he's controlled in with his arm"
Me: "Still needs to be deliberate"
"No it doesn't. He's gained an advantage from it"
I can't even accuse MOTD of telling them this sh*t. Where do players get this from??
And that's why FIFA gives us several considerations to look at:
Now, some of those (46-50) help us determine whether to caution or dismiss, but the first five (41-45) really help us understand if something is classified as deliberate handling or not.
As far as I can recall, I've only actually given one caution for handball, for an attempted "Maradona" (the punch went wide). I also recall the only time I've refereed my brother, where he came on at half time, had the ball blasted at his arm from kick-off and I gave the handball against him.
Generally though, it's all about the movement of the arm for me - players using their arms to make themselves big are most likely to get called up for handball.
Generally though, it's all about the movement of the arm for me - players using their arms to make themselves big are most likely to get called up for handball.
)CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
I think the LOTG should be reworded to:
"Permits contact between the ball and his/her arm when the player could reasonably have been expected to avoid such contact"
That's pretty much how we apply it, and that takes 'natural position' into consideration. The law needs rewording - 'deliberate' implies the player made a conscious decision, which isn't the case.
Unnatural position can never be accidental. Natural position might be, if the player has had the chance to move his arm out of the way (and consider whether he only saw the ball at the last moment).
Going to emphasise though, if it's accidental it doesn't matter what the outcome is - accidental handling that stops or scores a goal is still no foul.
I know some of our highest ranking officials here think that a player falling on the ball (unintentionally falling, naturally putting arms out and striking the ball as an unavoidable result with arms) is a foul.....ffs.......
"Permits contact between the ball and his/her arm when the player could reasonably have been expected to avoid such contact"
That's pretty much how we apply it, and that takes 'natural position' into consideration. The law needs rewording - 'deliberate' implies the player made a conscious decision, which isn't the case.
Unnatural position can never be accidental. Natural position might be, if the player has had the chance to move his arm out of the way (and consider whether he only saw the ball at the last moment).
Going to emphasise though, if it's accidental it doesn't matter what the outcome is - accidental handling that stops or scores a goal is still no foul.
I know some of our highest ranking officials here think that a player falling on the ball (unintentionally falling, naturally putting arms out and striking the ball as an unavoidable result with arms) is a foul.....ffs.......
deusex
RefChat Addict
Our top officials give EVERY ball to hand contact (unless it happens in the box, then they suddenly find their restaint!)
zarathustra
RefChat Addict
Since the start of the season I've give 3 hand balls, with one being dogso-h on the line.
I think I've missed 2 due to poor positioning in my formative games.
Most of the calls I hear/see are either someone protecting themselves from a ball blasted at very close range <5m or unexpected bobbles/bounces from crap pitches.
I think I've missed 2 due to poor positioning in my formative games.
Most of the calls I hear/see are either someone protecting themselves from a ball blasted at very close range <5m or unexpected bobbles/bounces from crap pitches.