I tend not to give penalties for these type of accidental handballs, but at the same time would penalise attacking player for it in penalty area if he inadvertently set up scoring opportunity. I had a game a couple of weeks ago when I penalised 2 probably unintentional handballs by attacking team in box but then turned down a penalty in their favour for similar incident by a defender in the other box. This led to a lot of calls about inconsistency. I take view that I do not want match to be decided on questionable handballs, so try to avoid goals being scored or conceded from these type of handballs. I did ask a couple of protesting players wanting penalty if they would be happy if I gave a penalty against them for similar unintentional handball and they avoided question.
Handball in the box - 2015 edition!
- Thread starter happy whistler
- Start date
HertsFinest
Next Weeks Ref
Its either handball or it isn't. Doesn't matter if it results in a penalty or defending free kick. It really is pretty black and white if you understand the law
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
If anything I think you should be more lenient in the PA if you're going to take that into consideration - ie you want a clearer foul for a decision that big, not a more dubious one.
As for your description....I'd say it depends on the skill of the players for that one.
i've had 2 PA decisions that have stuck with me
1)Youth game (U/12-15 or some such), ball bouncing fairly slowly into an open goal. Defender running across the open goal, right on the line, to intercept. As he approaches, ball hits a divot and comes off at a surprise angle. Still towards goal, but back in the direction the player came from as he's still running. His arm is in natural stride and about it's furthest point from his body. Ball hits his hand, drops dead. I took the weakest possible option - PK (because I felt it was expected) and no card (because it was accidental - yes, I know!!). That's the first and last time I've justified a decision like that. Fact is, no foul occurred, I shouldn't have stopped play. It was completely unavoidable
2)Men's game, ball bouncing like a pinball around the PA. Attacker has arms down by his side, no idea where the ball is. I think it came from behind him at close range, hit his hand, dropped dead. He turned, kicked it into the goal. I allowed the goal, which was the correct decision.
I once had a local first grade coach yell at me to tell me there's no such thing as accidental handball in the box!! Hearing that makes me wonder what on earth he pays attention to - he's been in the game so long he would have seen hundreds of accidental handlings waved away!!
As for your description....I'd say it depends on the skill of the players for that one.
i've had 2 PA decisions that have stuck with me
1)Youth game (U/12-15 or some such), ball bouncing fairly slowly into an open goal. Defender running across the open goal, right on the line, to intercept. As he approaches, ball hits a divot and comes off at a surprise angle. Still towards goal, but back in the direction the player came from as he's still running. His arm is in natural stride and about it's furthest point from his body. Ball hits his hand, drops dead. I took the weakest possible option - PK (because I felt it was expected) and no card (because it was accidental - yes, I know!!). That's the first and last time I've justified a decision like that. Fact is, no foul occurred, I shouldn't have stopped play. It was completely unavoidable
2)Men's game, ball bouncing like a pinball around the PA. Attacker has arms down by his side, no idea where the ball is. I think it came from behind him at close range, hit his hand, dropped dead. He turned, kicked it into the goal. I allowed the goal, which was the correct decision.
I once had a local first grade coach yell at me to tell me there's no such thing as accidental handball in the box!! Hearing that makes me wonder what on earth he pays attention to - he's been in the game so long he would have seen hundreds of accidental handlings waved away!!
Sorry SM problem with my laptop loading. I thought I was on newest post but was actually on oldest post.Did not realise date was 2011 untill after I hit post button.
PinnerPaul
RefChat Addict
I had one last season, attacker takes a swing at bouncing ball, misses, ball hits his hand drops to him, he has another go and scores.
This led to red card after match ended which I've posted on another thread about THAT subject.
This led to red card after match ended which I've posted on another thread about THAT subject.
Futsal1st
New Member
I had a HB incident in an open mens game. Ball enters box from corner. Lots of scrambling by both teams. Defender gets nudged in back by team mate (unintentionally) and goes to ground. Puts his arms out to stop face plant. Ball rolls to one of his arms and stops dead. He jumps to his feet and clears ball. Attacking team goes off with HB calls and had to YC a couple. For me it was simple. Not deliberate so play on.
Regarding fouls in the PA or outside, IMHO you should NOT change the requirement for a foul inside or outside. If the contact was a foul anywhere else on the field and occurs in the PA, its a pen. Foul recognition should be consistent across the FOP.
Regarding fouls in the PA or outside, IMHO you should NOT change the requirement for a foul inside or outside. If the contact was a foul anywhere else on the field and occurs in the PA, its a pen. Foul recognition should be consistent across the FOP.
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
Futsal1st - I remember timekeeping a Futsal game, one referee penalised a player for the same sort of thing (and this ref is a top tier official in outdoor in my country), and even in discussion the other ref agreed with him (top tier in the state for Futsal). Just ridiculous - it's as accidental as it gets. But people always scream for that one.
I think being consistent in and out of the area is important.
But I think sometimes the age of players can matter.
I did an U13 Girls game and a forward took a shot to which a defender, just inside the box, managed to lift her arms up to protect her face as it came straight at her. The distance between the 2 players was 4 yards at most.
It hit her arms, and I shouted "no handball, play on"
No way was I going to give a penalty for it as there was no part of the action that was an attempt to stop the ball from going into the net.
Yes the raising of the arms was deliberate...but she was 12 with a hard ball being blasted straight at her.
Screams for a penalty from the attacking coach...
He agreed later though that it would have been a tough call if I called it against his team!
But I think sometimes the age of players can matter.
I did an U13 Girls game and a forward took a shot to which a defender, just inside the box, managed to lift her arms up to protect her face as it came straight at her. The distance between the 2 players was 4 yards at most.
It hit her arms, and I shouted "no handball, play on"
No way was I going to give a penalty for it as there was no part of the action that was an attempt to stop the ball from going into the net.
Yes the raising of the arms was deliberate...but she was 12 with a hard ball being blasted straight at her.
Screams for a penalty from the attacking coach...
He agreed later though that it would have been a tough call if I called it against his team!
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
@jertzee , I did exactly the same in an U13 boys match on Sunday. Was right on the edge of the box and a totally instinctive defensive reaction ... I justified this to myself by saying that made it a 'natural' rather than 'unnatural' position for the hands but know it's a stretch.
Whether I'd have been able to do the same if the player had been standing on the goal line and obviously prevented a goal is another matter .. dilemmas, dilemmas
Whether I'd have been able to do the same if the player had been standing on the goal line and obviously prevented a goal is another matter .. dilemmas, dilemmas
Handball for me has to be deliberate no matter where it is on the pitch. Which means for me to give a pen its got to be 100% nailed on. That said it can cause issues Had a game a few weeks back, home team scored three goals, all of which came from attackers inadvertently handball. One was one on one with keeper, shot, save, rebounds to the striker from about a yard and hits his hand and bounces over the keeper and he tucks it home. Other two came from defenders going to clear the ball and hitting the wingers hand and bouncing for them to knock a cross in. Needless to say the defending team were pretty unhappy with me by the end.
i have to say Herts that i disagree completly ! The law on handball is very much open to interpretation and therfor a referees opinion comes into play as we see on a very regular basis at the the top level
Handball has probably given me more grief over the years than anything else .....including penalties !
I agree with you Beezer - I am in similar position to you with handballs causing me more grief than anything else over years. I had 1 coach telling me I missed 10 in 1 game earlier this season. I could have missed 2 but others totally unintentional or did not actually touch arm.
I do not find all handballs black and white - some are obvious handballs and some totally not as unintentional and arm by side. Some others are marginal and I bet if you showed 100 refs 100 handballs no 2 would give exactly same answers.eg being in an unnatural position or not there is going to be a point where 1 degree will be difference. similarly distance a couple of inches can determine whether to give or not.
So black and white - not for me. Totally open to interpretation on day by ref.
This is why I do not like goals being scored from or penaties given against borderline handballs
I do not find all handballs black and white - some are obvious handballs and some totally not as unintentional and arm by side. Some others are marginal and I bet if you showed 100 refs 100 handballs no 2 would give exactly same answers.eg being in an unnatural position or not there is going to be a point where 1 degree will be difference. similarly distance a couple of inches can determine whether to give or not.
So black and white - not for me. Totally open to interpretation on day by ref.
This is why I do not like goals being scored from or penaties given against borderline handballs
CapnBloodbeard
RefChat Addict
@jertzee , I did exactly the same in an U13 boys match on Sunday. Was right on the edge of the box and a totally instinctive defensive reaction ... I justified this to myself by saying that made it a 'natural' rather than 'unnatural' position for the hands but know it's a stretch.
Whether I'd have been able to do the same if the player had been standing on the goal line and obviously prevented a goal is another matter .. dilemmas, dilemmas
Accidental is accidental. While the arms moved, it wasn't deliberate - being a self-protective reflex, the player had no control. They're permitted to do this, but you take skill, opportunity to react etc into consideration. Also, be careful about the arms going out to the ball. I'm also not tolerant of the reflex when the ball wasn't hitting their head anyway (eg ball sailing just over the head, arms go above the head)
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
Action #1 of how to annoy Mod Dan...!
Glad SM sorted before I saw, as I have a tendency to mildly overreact to things like this!
I always try to be sure it 100% deliberate. I remember a few years back not giving a penalty cos the player 'fell backwards' onto the ball handling in the process. Players were claiming 'hand to ball' but as I said at the time he hasn't got eyes in the back of his head so he can't see where he's falling!
What doesn't help is uneducated television commentators saying that a penalty should be given every time a ball strikes a hand or arm!
What doesn't help is uneducated television commentators saying that a penalty should be given every time a ball strikes a hand or arm!
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
Just to add to this. I'm currently coaching in USA and the referees out here LOVE giving handball! If it touches arm/hand, it's penalised. Don't think the word 'deliberate' has made it into the USA version of LOTG!
DanCohen17
Simply The Best
Certainly the players now expect it every time it hits a hand, either team. Just gets frustrating as a coach (and ex-ref) when they're given...or when it's a last minute penalty to lose the game!!!!