A&H

Handball in box what would you give?

JamesG

JamesG

New Member
Level 5 Referee
A friend txt myself last night and ran this scenario by me, happened in his game yest and we disagreed on the outcome.

Last min of game team A in box, player goes around keeper and shoots towards goal. Meanwhile team B defender goes towards the line and stands on 6 yard line. He brings his arms in towards his body and both arms end up crossed across his chest. The shot strikes the defender on the arm, my mate blows for penalty and issues a red for Denying goal by handball. He says he made that decision as arms in unnatural position, team b went mental!!!

tough call.

I disagreed, I said as arms in close to body he's not made himself bigger etc and he's clearly brought arms in to avoid handball, plus ball would've struck him on chest.

Thoughts?
 
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It sounds from the description (always difficult to say when you can't see it) that your friend dropped a clanger.

If the ball is clearly going into the body of the player and it is a shot (which I guessing means the ball moved with a lot of pace) then what more can the guy do to get his arms out of the way? Seems very harsh. Not surprised the team went mental.

An unnatural position would be stretched out for me, rather than tucked in.
 
I don't think arms crossed across the chest is a natural arm position, however, I don't see how you would give the penalty at all if the ball would've clearly hit him on the chest anyway. Seems a clear unintentional handball to me and thus "Not intentional - play on!".
 
Yes agreed prob not a natural position but didn't move arms out to block shot etc

Deffo not a pen for me or a card never mind a red

Easy with hindsight mind you
 
That is the thing with this sort of scenario, it is easy to ref over a forum! It's also easy to ref from the sideline! :)
 
Supermonkey said:
That is the thing with this sort of scenario, it is easy to ref over a forum! It's also easy to ref from the sideline! :)
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And on that basis, JamesG's mate was absolutely right. Penalty and red for DOGSO. He must have been right as he blew it and gave it. ;)
 
As was once told to me "You don't have to agree with my decisions, but you do have to accept them."
I think this appies here.:)
 
Indeed.

But If you were playing in that game and it was you that got sent off, tell me you wouldn't feel hard done by?

It's the ref creating a situation which invites problems, potentially the need for further disciplinary action. I take your point that on the day the ref made the call and it is what it is, but with hindsight it's still a dubious decision at best.
 
As you describe it, it certainly sounds like he made a mistake. I'd echo the thoughts of Evan, I don't see how an offence has been committed. If the ball hadn't hit his hand, it would've hit his chest, which in my opinion at least, means that the ball hitting his hand/arm is totally irrelevant.

Still, we all make mistakes :)
 
Supermonkey said:
Indeed.

But If you were playing in that game and it was you that got sent off, tell me you wouldn't feel hard done by?

It's the ref creating a situation which invites problems, potentially the need for further disciplinary action. I take your point that on the day the ref made the call and it is what it is, but with hindsight it's still a dubious decision at best.
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Don't get me wrong. Totally agree. I certainly wouldn't have given it.
 
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Supermonkey said:
An unnatural position would be stretched out for me, rather than tucked in.
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While if you take the law literally, this is not deliberate handball so it is not a penalty, when you talk about a natural position hands across your chest is not a natural position. Having said that, I'd find it difficult to award a penalty for this.
 
If he's crossed his arms instinctively to protect himself, then it IS a perfectly natural position to be in. No penalty.

I would find it difficult to give pen and RC for this.
 
Southend-ref said:
But 'instinctively' is deliberate is it not?
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No.

instinct
in·stinct
1 [in-stingkt] Show IPA noun
1.
an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.
2.
a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.


deliberate
de·lib·er·ate
1.
carefully weighed or considered; studied; intentional: a deliberate lie.


'Deliberate' implies there is a thought process behind it, instinctive is.....well...instinctive or without thought. So, look at the wording in the LOTG, and change the word 'deliberate' to 'instinctive' and see how the offence changes:

"An instinctive movement of the hand to the ball"

It sounds like, in this instance, the natural instinct for self-preservation took over and the arms were used to protect the chest.

I would struggle to give a penalty.
 
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