A&H

Fouled, then sent off.

D

dbo5ton

Member
Level 4 Referee
Morning all, had a weird incident. Hopefully got it right. Red 7 was running down the wing and was fouled by Blue 3. YC tackle. As im about to blow, Red 8 skips past the incident and picks the ball up, arms go up for advantage (cross and decent chance) and before I can shout "advantage play on", Red7 whilst on the floor swings and kicks red7.

Stop play. I get out my red card, red 7 says " that's a bit harsh ref, he wasn't last man. Yellow at worst."
I reply "hes getting a yellow, this is for you."

Followed by all the red team then asking how can he be fouled and sent off. surely the advantage is pulled back. Restart Is fk to blues and off we go
 
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dbo5ton said:
Yes, it was a deliberate kick sat down and swung round
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VC is VC irrelevant of he thinks he has been fouled, irrelevant of whether you have played advantage or given a free kick so you were quite right to show the red card. Typical player response of "how can he be sent off and fouled".
 
Yes, sounds correct. Punish the more serious offence - VC against a trip, so it restarts with a free kick to the blues.
 
dbo5ton said:
Morning all, had a weird incident. Hopefully got it right. Red 7 was running down the wing and was fouled by Blue 3. YC tackle. As im about to blow, Red 8 skips past the incident and picks the ball up, arms go up for advantage (cross and decent chance) and before I can shout "advantage play on", Red7 whilst on the floor swings and kicks red7.

Stop play. I get out my red card, red 7 says " that's a bit harsh ref, he wasn't last man. Yellow at worst."
I reply "hes getting a yellow, this is for you."

Followed by all the red team then asking how can he be fouled and sent off. surely the advantage is pulled back. Restart Is fk to blues and off we go
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Dont get the second bit though. Before you blow, red picks up the ball, arms go up for advantage, cross and decent chance?

**Edit, sorry you dont mean picks up literally do you?
 
What you appear to have done sounds correct
However
Granted only one person is ultimately responsible for his actions, and thats the player who kicked out, so, am not over looking that fact. We need to give thought to what provoked him to kick out, again, who is to say he would not have done it anyway, but, am going to go out on a limb and guess had the fk been given, end result would have been dfk to player, yc to defender and nobody bats an eyelid

Was advantage really the best option. Or to put it another way, if you could replay the incident again, would you still play on,or, simply award the foul?

Just something to think about.
 
lincs22 said:
Yes, sounds correct. Punish the more serious offence - VC against a trip, so it restarts with a free kick to the blues.
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They aren't simultaneous...

They're very sequential.

Trip by Blue, Advantage to Red, Kick out by Red.

The kick out was a foul committed by the Red team during their advantage, so "cancels" out the advantage and becomes a new offence to give the free kick for.
 
dbo5ton said:
At the time, it was a viable advantage and if it was to happen again I probably would. We cant stop giving advantages through fear of repercussions. Personally I think red 7 was kicking out in frustration regardless
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Good summary and in no way am I saying right or wrong.
Advantage comes under the game managment catergory, and, on this occasion (again, we will never know for sure), playing advantage has led to the fouled player being sent off, so that cannot be classed as good managment.
One thing we should consider is the reprecussions though, its safe refereeing to give the foul, yellow card, and proactive.
Many a time a potential advantage is simply awarded as a fk if you feel the fouled player might take matters into their own hands, simple safe refereeing.

Again thats not specfic to your incident but something to consider.

Stating again, yip,the player only has himself to blame, I get that.

But bigger picture, fk, yc, and there would be no incident.
 
There is a great clip of Celtic v Rangers few years back and I think it was Joey Barton on Scott Brown, round half way, bad foul but ball was breakimg for what would be a great advantage, ref was yards away, thought about playing on, quickly sussed Brown was none too happy with the tackle, plus, team mates were closing in, so blew whistle, got inbetween the players, yellow card to Barton and incident killed stone dead.
Had he not done so, the players would have taken matters into their own hands

Even the commentators remarked, he could have played that on but did the right thing by blowing up.

Game managment.
 
lincs22 said:
Yes, sounds correct. Punish the more serious offence - VC against a trip, so it restarts with a free kick to the blues.
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They aren't simultaneous offences though. They are sequential. So the more serious offence bit doesnt come into it..
But I would be inclined to give free kick to blue as a wasted advantage by red for the second offence of VC.
ie Trip>advantage> VC
That said if the advantage didn't accrue then a red FK wouldn't be incorrect.
 
dbo5ton said:
Morning all, had a weird incident. Hopefully got it right. Red 7 was running down the wing and was fouled by Blue 3. YC tackle. As im about to blow, Red 8 skips past the incident and picks the ball up, arms go up for advantage (cross and decent chance) and before I can shout "advantage play on", Red7 whilst on the floor swings and kicks red7.

Stop play. I get out my red card, red 7 says " that's a bit harsh ref, he wasn't last man. Yellow at worst."
I reply "hes getting a yellow, this is for you."

Followed by all the red team then asking how can he be fouled and sent off. surely the advantage is pulled back. Restart Is fk to blues and off we go
Click to expand...
After the original foul you had to make three important judgement calls there all of which are YHTBT (you have to be there) to judge.

1. Was the offended team benefiting from playing advantage? your judgement sounds right.
2. Was the swinging kick VC? Your judgement sounds right
3. Did the temperature of the game at that moment of the foul and the severity of the foul warrant application of the advantage law? You have not given enough info on this and from what I read I am not sure if you have made the right judgement call on this (although you could have).

No. 3 is an important part of game management and it takes a lot of experience and 'smart refereeing' to judge it. As you said you can't stop applying advantage for fear of repercussions but you must not play advantage if you know there is a good chance of it happening, well unless the ball is rolling in or being tapped in. It is the last dot point in advice to the referees for advantage in the LOTG (page 202). Of course some retaliations are very hard to predict and come out of nowhere.

PS: when explaining game incidents don't use team colours especially if one of them is red or yellow. Use home and away. Less room for confusion :)
 
dbo5ton said:
Stop play. I get out my red card, red 7 says " that's a bit harsh ref, he wasn't last man. Yellow at worst."
I reply "hes getting a yellow, this is for you."
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I'd like to jump in on this bit since everyone else has tackled the other things;

I actually got advice on this from an assessor early this season, similar situation:

I was told that when dealing with a situation where you have to issue punishments to two people at the same time, deal with the minor offence first;

So, blow the whistle, give the free-kick, summon both over. You can involve the captains if you think it is a decision that most players will not have seen - this will help cut out dissent, and going by your description, this might have been a good idea as you'd have a chance to relay exactly what is going on minimising the confusion and thus outrage.

Then, caution the person who did the initial foul, send him away and then explain the red card and send off the more serious offender (violent conduct). This way, both are getting dealt with together, but also, because the red card comes last you avoid interruption that can happen as people react to the card, on top of the other benefits I noted above.

The way you've written the discussion, I can see why there is confusion coming from that (red) team; This isn't criticism, just food for thought on game management, because you've got the decisions correct, so this should help you get it implemented with more ease in the future.
 
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