Footballers becoming refs

[Big Cat]

One of the ways in which ex pro players could develop quicker as referees is for them to do their clubs development team matches.

One of the issues with ex players is earnings. How can they sustain their learning period as referees, as to get the experience they would need to do 2-3 matches a week.

I don't think top professionals would be best placed to adopt the whistle, being in the limelight but also wages (as you say). These fellas tend to take up coaching or media work which panders to their egos
WRT journeyman pros, I'm not sure how any expediting promotion model would look, but the existing scheme seems dated to me. In terms of mental sharpness and physical fitness, elite referees should be ~10 years younger than they are now, so players from the National League or EFL with a shortened career, would be ideal candidates

 

[socal lurker]

But it has created a goal (scoring opportunity)

You could say it started a promising attack

Nope. Since the kicker isn’t allowed to touch the bill without being penalized, it’s not a goal scoring opportunity or promising attack.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

I bumped into a player on Saturday from my former league, nice lad, appreciate of what I had to do and how I did it. Said he respected referees more now he was older and the thankless job we all do. Said he wouldn’t put up with that £&@? for any money.
It’s not for everyone, I understand the notion but decent players don’t make decent managers usually!

 

[RustyRef]

They should be given help to adapt from playing to refereeing quickly, but not fast tracked. How would they be fast tracked before even knowing they were cut out for it and had the basic skills, it could end up being a total waste of time and money, both theirs and the CFA's. Not to mention of course being unfair on other referees who may well be much better than them but are blocked as the ex-pros have taken the places that they could move into.

In any case, realistically how many would actually want to do it? No chance with top and second tier players who earned millions a year, but even League 2 players earning £1000 a week, would they really go out for £30 a game to learn their trade? Perhaps I am doing them a disservice, but I don't think so.

 

[Big Cat]

They should be given help to adapt from playing to refereeing quickly, but not fast tracked. How would they be fast tracked before even knowing they were cut out for it and had the basic skills, it could end up being a total waste of time and money, both theirs and the CFA's. Not to mention of course being unfair on other referees who may well be much better than them but are blocked as the ex-pros have taken the places that they could move into.

In any case, realistically how many would actually want to do it? No chance with top and second tier players who earned millions a year, but even League 2 players earning £1000 a week, would they really go out for £30 a game to learn their trade? Perhaps I am doing them a disservice, but I don't think so.

Some good points, however i'm implying that that a population of ex-pros would yield a better crop of talent than kids who've barely kicked a ball. I'm not satisfied that the overall standard of refereeing is good enough, so something radical has to change to improve. This has nought to do with my refereeing btw, although my playing background helps me wrestle with grass roots
I accept that there would be problems marching straight into a L4 game, but an ex-pro is not gonna drop his knickers because a 100 locals turn up to watch. Whatever, i don't think refs 40+ should be doing top flight games. Speaking from experience, we're no longer at our sharpist or fitest

 

[RustyRef]

Some good points, however i'm implying that that a population of ex-pros would yield a better crop of talent than kids who've barely kicked a ball. I'm not satisfied that the overall standard of refereeing is good enough, so something radical has to change to improve. This has nought to do with my refereeing btw, although my playing background helps me wrestle with grass roots
I accept that there would be problems marching straight into a L4 game, but an ex-pro is not gonna drop his knickers because a 100 locals turn up to watch. Whatever, i don't think refs 40+ should be doing top flight games. Speaking from experience, we're no longer at our sharpist or fitest

Sorry mate, but that is contradictory. Anyone going into a supply league game is going to find it very difficult, no matter what level they played at. I played a lot of football, and was still playing when I got my L4, but I was way out of my depth even though I'd served my trade as a referee at grass roots. They are totally different skills, a bit like saying that a veteran electrician should get a job as a senior gas fitter because of their experience. On a more serious note, some of the referees I've really seen struggle are those that have played at higher levels as they can't get into their head that they are now a referee, not a player.

Also, if 40+ year old referees shouldn't be doing top flight games how will that help ex-players? Realistically they won't retire from playing until early to mid-30s, potentially later, so even if they were fast tracked they'd have no time to operate at higher levels. Age should mean nothing as long as you can pass the fitness test - two of the consistently best referees in the country are either rapidly approaching 50 or already past it. If Mike Dean and Martin Atkinson were taken away from the PL because they are over 40 it would not be a better competition for it.

 

[zarathustra]

But there absolutely no reason to think that having played football means someone would make a good referee.

Yes they might be fitter, but that is not a certainty. They might be younger, but again not necessarily so.

Understanding the game word obviously be a bonus, but refereeing is more than just knowing the laws, being able to run for 90 minutes and being able to tell how play is going to develop.

There are a lot of soft skills needed which can't be taught, and they can take months or years to develop.

Whether the standard of refereeing is good enough, is I guess up for debate. I watch league 1, and the standard of refereeing isn't terrible. I've not seen any champions League final performances, but match officials at this level are still semi pro and have "normal" jobs Monday to Friday.

If you want to improve the standard of refereeing then investing in better training at all levels, and making refereeing at the higher level more attractive would probably be more effective than taking ex players and fast tracking them because they can place a pass 50 yards

 

[Big Cat]

Sorry mate, but that is contradictory. Anyone going into a supply league game is going to find it very difficult, no matter what level they played at. I played a lot of football, and was still playing when I got my L4, but I was way out of my depth even though I'd served my trade as a referee at grass roots. They are totally different skills, a bit like saying that a veteran electrician should get a job as a senior gas fitter because of their experience. On a more serious note, some of the referees I've really seen struggle are those that have played at higher levels as they can't get into their head that they are now a referee, not a player.

Also, if 40+ year old referees shouldn't be doing top flight games how will that help ex-players? Realistically they won't retire from playing until early to mid-30s, potentially later, so even if they were fast tracked they'd have no time to operate at higher levels. Age should mean nothing as long as you can pass the fitness test - two of the consistently best referees in the country are either rapidly approaching 50 or already past it. If Mike Dean and Martin Atkinson were taken away from the PL because they are over 40 it would not be a better competition for it.

Read back through what I've said earlier in this discussion and there's no contradiction. I was referring to targeting players who'd had their careers cut short and not those leaving the game at 35+
You're misunderstanding me. There will be exp-players who make awful referees, but I'm saying that you'll get a better crop of talent from that group (on average) than you will from those who haven't played. You lost me with the electrician, gas fitter thing because football is football and that has to help. I don't have all the answers but our brains are decaying long before we turn 40, so elite sport should be behind us
I do get the feeling that decorated refs defend that promotional record as something someone else couldn't do (better)
Personally, based on what I see at all levels, I beg to differ (self excluded statement). The existing model is not working

 

[RustyRef]

Read back through what I've said earlier in this discussion and there's no contradiction. I was referring to targeting players who'd had their careers cut short and not those leaving the game at 35+
You're misunderstanding me. There will be exp-players who make awful referees, but I'm saying that you'll get a better crop of talent from that group (on average) than you will from those who haven't played. You lost me with the electrician, gas fitter thing because football is football and that has to help. I don't have all the answers our brains are decaying long before we turn 40 so elite sport should be behind us
I do get the feeling that decorated refs defend that promotional record as something someone else couldn't do (better)
Personally, I beg to differ (sic self excluded)

They still have to want to do it. Totally disagree with the brain comment, traditionally the better referees peak in their 40s or at most very late 30s, and not just in football. Nigel Owens is widely regarded as one of the greatest sports officials of all time, and he is still going as strong as ever at 48, and there will be loads of other officials included the English referees I listed. Collina was 35 before he was FIFA listed, and 42 when he refereed the WC final, and would have carried on beyond 45 when he retired due to a clash with bosses. Writing off people because their brains are decaying before they pass 40 is just beyond ridiculous, the legs might be starting to go but their experience will far outweigh any potential loss in the grey matter at that age.

My electrician vs gas fitter comment was to point out that refereeing and playing are totally different roles. I was being a bit flippant but my point remains, there is absolutely zero evidence that having been a senior player makes someone a good referee, and indeed in all of the evidence I have seen it often makes them a worse referee as they have preconceptions.

 

[Sheffields Finest]

I think the perception with non-referees is that ex-players 100% would make better referees that some of you lot, feel for the game, empathy and all that, that's not my view, but I'd guess if you polled the general football fan that would be the over-riding view...

 

[Big Cat]

They still have to want to do it. Totally disagree with the brain comment, traditionally the better referees peak in their 40s or at most very late 30s, and not just in football. Nigel Owens is widely regarded as one of the greatest sports officials of all time, and he is still going as strong as ever at 48, and there will be loads of other officials included the English referees I listed. Collina was 35 before he was FIFA listed, and 42 when he refereed the WC final, and would have carried on beyond 45 when he retired due to a clash with bosses. Writing off people because their brains are decaying before they pass 40 is just beyond ridiculous, the legs might be starting to go but their experience will far outweigh any potential loss in the grey matter at that age.

My electrician vs gas fitter comment was to point out that refereeing and playing are totally different roles. I was being a bit flippant but my point remains, there is absolutely zero evidence that having been a senior player makes someone a good referee, and indeed in all of the evidence I have seen it often makes them a worse referee as they have preconceptions.

Counter arguments accepted with some grace. I just find it absurd that playing experience is discounted so emphatically when I solely rely upon my apprenticeship served on the terraces or playing. I know what players are gonna do and say before they do, because I've seen it or done myself countless times before. My disciplinary record was chequered.
The 'best-in-class' referees of today are 40+ because they haven't got younger fellas to compete with {catch-22}. I'm no doctor, but the reactions and perceptions of a 'dad standard' ref will always be inferior to that of a lad (or lass) in their prime. Pick up the occasional copy of the New Scientist to learn how the brain is heading south by the time hair falls out or turns grey. Experience is very important, but I'm saying we're siding with it too much

My overriding feeling is that standards of refereeing are generally poor for whatever reason. I'm merely speculating on corrective measures

 

[Big Cat]

They still have to want to do it. Totally disagree with the brain comment, traditionally the better referees peak in their 40s or at most very late 30s, and not just in football. Nigel Owens is widely regarded as one of the greatest sports officials of all time, and he is still going as strong as ever at 48, and there will be loads of other officials included the English referees I listed. Collina was 35 before he was FIFA listed, and 42 when he refereed the WC final, and would have carried on beyond 45 when he retired due to a clash with bosses. Writing off people because their brains are decaying before they pass 40 is just beyond ridiculous, the legs might be starting to go but their experience will far outweigh any potential loss in the grey matter at that age.

My electrician vs gas fitter comment was to point out that refereeing and playing are totally different roles. I was being a bit flippant but my point remains, there is absolutely zero evidence that having been a senior player makes someone a good referee, and indeed in all of the evidence I have seen it often makes them a worse referee as they have preconceptions.

I don't think you're opinions are wrong as such. (I secretly harbour a lot of respect for your experience in the game)
Doesn't mean I can't be opposed to your views however

 

[Kes]

I don't think there is any correlation between being an ex-top-level player and being a good referee.

It's just an individual's assumption based on personal view. If it had any real credence then all the top successful managers/coaches in the modern game would be ex top-level players which they aren't. My view is that players make absolutely the worst "referees". I think that at grass roots level, having played a bit yourself certainly helps, but at the higher echelons of the game, particularly if you're talking about fast-tracking people and creating an elite (ex top-flight player) cadre based on a notion that such a player is somehow better at a base start-point for the job than another mid-range level referee then that's a recipe for failure.

 

[es1]

i dont think anyone is assuming that an ex-pro = a good ref. they'd have to be observed and mentored to make sure they posses the required competence to progress

i dont think anyone is suggesting that they get dropped into a decent standard of football with no experience. start them at saturday/sunday league level to allow them to learn and test their skills.

all i'm saying is that they're allowed to progress quicker than the current promotion scheme. obviously this would create controversy as a result of a two tiered system but we'd be talking about tens of refs here, not hundreds, and if it gets a couple of them to level 3 and beyond then i think that would have to be a positive.

anyway, none of this matters anyway! those in power will do something or nothing about it regardless of mine (and everyone elses) ramblings!

 

[Hoosier Ref]

I have been away from the forum for most of this season. I have been crazy busy refereeing and travelling as a result. I had some great opportunities to develop as a referee. All of the time dedicated to the profession this year has resulted in all of my non-refereeing time being spent with family. I'm back (a little).

Here are my thoughts. I'm an ex-player at the collegiate level here in the US. I have continued to play in adult leagues since. Total now, I've played about 41 years. I have been back refereeing for 5 (short stint in my youth). I have refereed with some EXCELLENT refs who played very little. I have refereed with some younger/former players who played at a much higher level than I did (some played low level professionally). I think there are benefits (and pitfalls) to being a player. It all depends on the individual, where they played/what position, their individual personality, size of ego, etc.

Here are my observations of converted high level players as well as my own experience:

• if someone goes into it thinking they know all the LOTG and their application based upon their background, they will struggle. How many players (and coaches) do we encounter at very high levels who don't understand the LOTG? or are operating on what they knew the LOTG to have been years ago? Former high level players have to check their ego and LEARN what they think they already knew.
• Players have not learned game/man management. This is a skill and must be developed.
• Players have not learned positioning. This is a skill and must be developed
  • This is one that I had to be aware of... As a player you want to make a supporting run to an attack. As a referee you need to find different space, make a different run than you would as a player.
• Players do have an understanding of where play is going/likely to go. They have a head start on anticipating play
• Players need to learn the proper mechanics of refereeing. If they do not apply themselves to this, they look sloppy/disinterested/unprofessional even if they are right in their officiating.
• Players have their own opinions on what constitutes a foul sometimes depending on what position they played. Center backs might think if the attacker is still breathing, then it wasn't a foul. Great attacking players may think breathing on them constitutes a foul. They bring baggage with them as far as all the "wrongs" they "suffered" at the hands of refs

Don't get me wrong, I think recruiting former players is a great thing and there is huge potential BUT I think there are other skills that they must develop and habits to break that need to be done by progressing. There are things to learn on any game regardless of age/level in my opinion. I know a lot of players who started refereeing and said "this is a lot more to this than I thought". They do tend to advance quickly BUT I think they should still go through a progression. It is a fantastic referee candidate pool though especially if they are young. They need the right attitude and personality however and not all players have that.... hmmm... Joey Barton comes to mind. Imagine him as a referee?

As far as the respect from players... hard to say there. That depends... I have refereed an adult league that I used to play in. Some players were great. They knew me and the type of player that I am. I had played with some of them or against them and it helped BUT can't be too friendly (or have them be too friendly) or the other team will perceive it as favoritism. Now it did present problems with some of the habitual problem players. Two in particular knew me as a player (felt they were better as a player) and did not see me as a referee. This got sorted eventually (involved some cards). I don't see this as being as much of an issue for former pros turned refs. I think it would help if players knew you played at a higher level.

Overall, I think they are a great candidate pool but they still have much to learn AND need to have the right attitude/personality.

 

[es1]

I have been away from the forum for most of this season. I have been crazy busy refereeing and travelling as a result. I had some great opportunities to develop as a referee. All of the time dedicated to the profession this year has resulted in all of my non-refereeing time being spent with family. I'm back (a little).

Here are my thoughts. I'm an ex-player at the collegiate level here in the US. I have continued to play in adult leagues since. Total now, I've played about 41 years. I have been back refereeing for 5 (short stint in my youth). I have refereed with some EXCELLENT refs who played very little. I have refereed with some younger/former players who played at a much higher level than I did (some played low level professionally). I think there are benefits (and pitfalls) to being a player. It all depends on the individual, where they played/what position, their individual personality, size of ego, etc.

Here are my observations of converted high level players as well as my own experience:

• if someone goes into it thinking they know all the LOTG and their application based upon their background, they will struggle. How many players (and coaches) do we encounter at very high levels who don't understand the LOTG? or are operating on what they knew the LOTG to have been years ago? Former high level players have to check their ego and LEARN what they think they already knew.
• Players have not learned game/man management. This is a skill and must be developed.
• Players have not learned positioning. This is a skill and must be developed
  • This is one that I had to be aware of... As a player you want to make a supporting run to an attack. As a referee you need to find different space, make a different run than you would as a player.
• Players do have an understanding of where play is going/likely to go. They have a head start on anticipating play
• Players need to learn the proper mechanics of refereeing. If they do not apply themselves to this, they look sloppy/disinterested/unprofessional even if they are right in their officiating.
• Players have their own opinions on what constitutes a foul sometimes depending on what position they played. Center backs might think if the attacker is still breathing, then it wasn't a foul. Great attacking players may think breathing on them constitutes a foul. They bring baggage with them as far as all the "wrongs" they "suffered" at the hands of refs

Don't get me wrong, I think recruiting former players is a great thing and there is huge potential BUT I think there are other skills that they must develop and habits to break that need to be done by progressing. There are things to learn on any game regardless of age/level in my opinion. I know a lot of players who started refereeing and said "this is a lot more to this than I thought". They do tend to advance quickly BUT I think they should still go through a progression. It is a fantastic referee candidate pool though especially if they are young. They need the right attitude and personality however and not all players have that.... hmmm... Joey Barton comes to mind. Imagine him as a referee?

As far as the respect from players... hard to say there. That depends... I have refereed an adult league that I used to play in. Some players were great. They knew me and the type of player that I am. I had played with some of them or against them and it helped BUT can't be too friendly (or have them be too friendly) or the other team will perceive it as favoritism. Now it did present problems with some of the habitual problem players. Two in particular knew me as a player (felt they were better as a player) and did not see me as a referee. This got sorted eventually (involved some cards). I don't see this as being as much of an issue for former pros turned refs. I think it would help if players knew you played at a higher level.

Overall, I think they are a great candidate pool but they still have much to learn AND need to have the right attitude/personality.

great post that, put more thought into it than i have! the pitfalls you raise are genuine and would need to be resolved and the only way you can do that is with practice for sure. i think there are way this could work with the right candidates and the right levels of coaching and mentorship but that would likely remove resources from others on the 'normal' referee pyramid...

tough one i suppose (if it were ever to be anything other than an idea of mine!) as there's plenty of positives and negatives on both sides

 

[Sheffields Finest]

Being an ex player myself helped initially but I learned a lot through the courses and then chucked in at the coal face warts and all. I think a referee with zero playing experience would struggle more than someone who has at least some practicable experience to start off with. Everyone is different, reading the piece by Clattenberg on Saturday was very interesting on the current SG!!

 

[es1]

Being an ex player myself helped initially but I learned a lot through the courses and then chucked in at the coal face warts and all. I think a referee with zero playing experience would struggle more than someone who has at least some practicable experience to start off with. Everyone is different, reading the piece by Clattenberg on Saturday was very interesting on the current SG!!

i imagine you'd struggle to find a ref who's never played some sort of competitive 11 a side football. i'm sure i was a dreadful player to ref though, i 'knew' the laws and would give out plenty of dissent!

i've thought infrequently about refereeing rugby league, despite never playing, there'd be plenty of opportunities where i live and how hard can it be right?!

 

[Mintyref]

I never played this beautiful game beyond a school kickabout and lads and dads matches with my boys team, I played with ball in hand, both codes. As a result my first couple of seasons were a steep learning curve particularly with regard to foul recognition and anticipating play......I eventually improved, I was still crap though, or so most players suggested.............