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Fluminese v Botafago

RustyRef said:
Be interested to see if the 30 second rule brought in by PGMOL has made any difference to the number of situations where players have received treatment. I don't have any kind of evidence but it doesn't appear to me that it has made much of a difference.
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You're probably right. But if they did it for injuries which stop play, rather than just those which need physio treatment, it would likely have a bigger impact
 
The Ref Stop
es1 said:
You're probably right. But if they did it for injuries which stop play, rather than just those which need physio treatment, it would likely have a bigger impact
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Fair to say that in any game that I'm refereeing, if the alleged injury is serious / prolonged enough to warrant play having to be stopped, then the player concerned is receiving treatment ... whether they want / need it or not :rolleyes: :)
 
es1 said:
You're probably right. But if they did it for injuries which stop play, rather than just those which need physio treatment, it would likely have a bigger impact
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Or perhaps a requirement that if they stay down injured for more than 5 seconds it is mandatory for the physio to come on and they have to wait 30 seconds after treatment before coming back on.
 
I have seen the 30 second clause be effective in the National League.

Players don't seem to understand however that they need to leave even if the physio is summoned and doesn't reach the player.
 
An incident tonight in the Man City game brought me back to this. Matheus Nunes went down in an innocuous challenge and was rolling around and screaming, and when the camera cut to him it was very obvious that he had dislocated his finger. Not saying he wasn't genuinely injured, but I've dislocated fingers twice when playing and it certainly doesn't hurt enough to make a grown man roll around in agony, it is more a case of shock when you look at your hand and realise that your finger is pointing at a right angle. I distinctly remember when I did it, it turned to my centre half partner and said something like like "err, this isn't good" at which point he let out an expletive and turned away.

The problem as I see it is players at pro clubs are conditioned from a very young age to go down and stay down if they feel any kind of injury. Not saying it is coached into them, rather they just copy what everyone else is doing which means the problem is perpetuated.
 
RustyRef said:
An incident tonight in the Man City game brought me back to this. Matheus Nunes went down in an innocuous challenge and was rolling around and screaming, and when the camera cut to him it was very obvious that he had dislocated his finger. Not saying he wasn't genuinely injured, but I've dislocated fingers twice when playing and it certainly doesn't hurt enough to make a grown man roll around in agony, it is more a case of shock when you look at your hand and realise that your finger is pointing at a right angle. I distinctly remember when I did it, it turned to my centre half partner and said something like like "err, this isn't good" at which point he let out an expletive and turned away.

The problem as I see it is players at pro clubs are conditioned from a very young age to go down and stay down if they feel any kind of injury. Not saying it is coached into them, rather they just copy what everyone else is doing which means the problem is perpetuated.
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As somebody who has also dislocated (and broke) a finger while playing, I can confirm that even as a 16 year old lad, I didn’t roll around 😂
 
es1 said:
If play is stopped the player must go off the pitch for 30 seconds?
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PGMOL already beat you to it on that one.

Match officials to adopt new approach for 2023/24 season

After the restart of play, a period of time - not less than 30 seconds - will be afforded for the player to be treated and they will not return to the pitch before this period has elapsed. As always, the player’s return to the pitch requires the referee's permission and may be delayed beyond 30 seconds if the phase of play is in the vicinity of the player looking to re-enter the pitch.
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RefereeX said:
Worth baring in mind the minor difference in wording. The 30 second rule brought in by PGMOL is that if the player receives treatment they must leave for 30 seconds, where as a rule that if play is stopped for an injury to said player they must leave for 30 seconds would stop a player feigning injury to get game stopped, then getting up and being ok (as happened in the Liverpool v Forest game I believe?!)

Not saying it makes a big change, but it's slightly different.
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I mean, the decision to cite that as the example of "feigning injury" is a great demonstration of why it's not safe to rely on one referees judgement on injuries. Depending on the angle of camera and/or the specific red shade of your glasses, he either gets kicked in the head by an opponent or forcefully punched in the head by his own GK.

Regardless of if it's a foul or not, it 100% is a legit head injury, and it's to a CB who would have been down in his own box while his team defends a cross if not for the ref stopping the game - adding extra danger of him being caught underfoot. There's a lot of needless fuss over the restart, but I'm not sure there's any reasonable rule change that would make it so the game shouldn't stop there.
 
GraemeS said:
I mean, the decision to cite that as the example of "feigning injury" is a great demonstration of why it's not safe to rely on one referees judgement on injuries. Depending on the angle of camera and/or the specific red shade of your glasses, he either gets kicked in the head by an opponent or forcefully punched in the head by his own GK.

Regardless of if it's a foul or not, it 100% is a legit head injury, and it's to a CB who would have been down in his own box while his team defends a cross if not for the ref stopping the game - adding extra danger of him being caught underfoot. There's a lot of needless fuss over the restart, but I'm not sure there's any reasonable rule change that would make it so the game shouldn't stop there.
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I haven't actually seen the clip in any detail at all, I was just led to believe that was the case because I'd heard he got back up and said he was fine as soon as the game was stopped.
 
RefereeX said:
I haven't actually seen the clip in any detail at all, I was just led to believe that was the case because I'd heard he got back up and said he was fine as soon as the game was stopped.
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I mean kind of - he's playing for a team who wants to chase the game, he pushed himself to get up and get the game going again. But none of that takes away from it being a legitimate stoppage in the first place.
 
GraemeS said:
I mean kind of - he's playing for a team who wants to chase the game, he pushed himself to get up and get the game going again. But none of that takes away from it being a legitimate stoppage in the first place.
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At the end of the day I think if you're going to go through the 'player safety is paramount' route, then we should enforce the player to leave the field when the game is stopped for an injury to them and not only if they receive treatment, but we need the whole of football to accept that that's going to be the case because we're concerned about player safety, because as said before, if we stop the game for a player who then says they are fine and doesn't want treatment, we're in a no win situation.
 
It's always an issue with this kind of thing - pointing at one tiny aspect of the law and going "fix this" is often insufficient. I'm of the opinion that football should have adopted rugby's HIA system (including temporary subs) years ago. Seems like an easy win for any meaningful head injury, but football is ridiculously opposed to re-using anything other sports have developed.

And I'd be open to a trial of physios coming on to treat injuries during play outside of the PA's - everyone always says "well football's more fluid" and it would take some tweaks to offside, but AFAIK, it's never actually been trialled on any meaningful scale.
 
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GraemeS said:
And I'd be open to a trial of physios coming on to treat injuries during play outside of the PA's - everyone always says "well football's more fluid" and it would take some tweaks to offside, but AFAIK, it's never actually been trialled on any meaningful scale.
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Don't really see much of a difference to a player lying prone on the pitch whilst play goes on, than a physio there too. I've often said the same, just let them come on.

But...

There are some issues to think about though. A physio may have to get from one side of the pitch to another to get there, and then get off again (can make leave at nearest boundary but almost always going to be coming from TA).

Other issues might surface such as interfering with play (can't be sent off, worth the fine).

It could just stop players feigning though if the game doesn't stop so perhaps play would be stopped for genuine injuries.

What i do know.is feigning injury is a scourge on the game and is at a point now where strong action needs to be put in place to combat it.
 
I think post-game sanctions would make a lot of sense. Impose a fine on the player and the club and add a YC for accumulation purposes. And have the fine against the club escalate upon each infraction.
 
RustyRef said:
Raul Jimenez could have been much worse if not dealt with promptly
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I know this is slightly irrelevant, but from a Wolves fan's perspective and also from a general non-footballing perspective, Michael Oliver probably saved Jimenez's life. He blew immediately, despite the ball being in the penalty area, and immediately signalled for a stretcher and the paramedics arrived quickly as a result. A lot of injuries could be a lot worse, which is why, personally, I never take the risk.
 
socal lurker said:
I think post-game sanctions would make a lot of sense. Impose a fine on the player and the club and add a YC for accumulation purposes. And have the fine against the club escalate upon each infraction.
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Just wouldn't stand up. How do you prove there was no injury.
 
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