A&H

Junior/Youth First match of season

S

SLI39

Well-Known Member
Couple of incidents from yesterday on which I wouldn't mind a second opinion:

1) Literally in the first minute of a local derby, U15s, division 1, an away midfielder protests a throw-in decision with the words "that's cheating", as much directed at the CAR as at me. I explained to him in audible range of his own touchline that he obviously didn't realise the seriousness of what he had said and that he should tread very carefully for rest of the match. He was subbed a few minutes later (coincidence?) and wasn't a major problem thereafter. Was that a cop-out?

2) Goalkeeper fumbles ball while trying to kick out and quickly regains control. I let play continue.

3) Free kick right on the edge of the box; I am right on top of it. An attacker tries to take it quickly, and in a very crowded area a collision happens (not a foul either way for me). I come back for ceremonial when perhaps I should have played on. Match was in a slightly fiery, tense stage.

4) Restarting play before subs can get into tactical position. Coach blames a goal concession on it, but LOTG only specify that they enter the field. A common sense one perhaps.

5) Away team is losing faith in CAR. I don't see a problem. They want me to talk to him. Response?

Thanks.
 
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In regards to number 4, I'd have kept play stopped until the player was in a tactical position - the point of a substitution is to gain tactical advantage over the opposition, not the opposition to gain an advantage over you (assuming it did cause the goal).
 
SLI39 said:
Couple of incidents from yesterday on which I wouldn't mind a second opinion:

1) Literally in the first minute of a local derby, U15s, division 1, an away midfielder protests a throw-in decision with the words "that's cheating", as much directed at the CAR as at me. I explained to him in audible range of his own touchline that he obviously didn't realise the seriousness of what he had said and that he should tread very carefully for rest of the match. He was subbed a few minutes later (coincidence?) and wasn't a major problem thereafter. Was that a cop-out?

2) Goalkeeper fumbles ball while trying to kick out and quickly regains control. I let play continue.

3) Free kick right on the edge of the box; I am right on top of it. An attacker tries to take it quickly, and in a very crowded area a collision happens (not a foul either way for me). I come back for ceremonial when perhaps I should have played on. Match was in a slightly fiery, tense stage.

4) Restarting play before subs can get into tactical position. Coach blames a goal concession on it, but LOTG only specify that they enter the field. A common sense one perhaps.

5) Away team is losing faith in CAR. I don't see a problem. They want me to talk to him. Response?

Thanks.
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1) others will say not but I think this has been handled well. Player and club have been left in no doubt tolerance for that kind of comment is thin. And on this occasion it has clearly worked out.

2) not sure what your question is here. Not enough description to give advice. Law says idfk if gk touches ball again with hands after releasing it. Many factors here aa keeper is allowed to bounce it. My gut feeling based on what you've written is keeper has released it. But many factors including skill level would form my decision making on this one. A yhtbt moment.

3) If the free kick had been taken legally i would be inclined to play on... a second bite of the cherry for reasons unknown. But similarly this could be smart refereeing if temperature was high and you weren't ready but from your description this was not why you brought it back.

4) As per @boulderdomb I'd be looking to allow him to take up his position before restart unless he was taking the micky. I am sure there were other factors involved in the goal being conceded but you've left them with you as a scapegoat option. An avoidable situation imo..

5) You're the ref and you decide if CAR is up to job. I would handle this with a threat of a dissent caution as that is quite simply what it is. Dissent.
 
I've got a very bad habit of letting play carry on quickly after issuing a caution or giving a bollocking and getting moaned at for not letting the player get back into position. Similar to your 4), I know there's nothing in the LOTG stating the referee has to give the players time to sort their tactics out, but it's a good thing to try and do. Any tips for not switching off in this situation?
 
Thanks very much for your thoughts. I realise 5 points can be a lot to cover!
On the goalkeeper decision, I now think it should have been an IFK. But I may have been the only person on the pitch who noticed he had released possession instead of bouncing; quite a subtle one.

For the quick FK, it was partly because of the match temperature, but I also couldn't see if it had been taken legally.

As for substitutions, I never normally get picked up for this; 90% of the time I make eye contact and wait for the thumb-up. In this situation it was probably exacerbated by the fact the throw-in took place on the other side of a big pitch.
In a yellow card scenario, I suppose you could say something like, if I had enough time to put the book away, get into my position and blow, there's no excuse for a player.
 
SLI39 said:
Couple of incidents from yesterday on which I wouldn't mind a second opinion:

1) Literally in the first minute of a local derby, U15s, division 1, an away midfielder protests a throw-in decision with the words "that's cheating", as much directed at the CAR as at me. I explained to him in audible range of his own touchline that he obviously didn't realise the seriousness of what he had said and that he should tread very carefully for rest of the match. He was subbed a few minutes later (coincidence?) and wasn't a major problem thereafter. Was that a cop-out?

2) Goalkeeper fumbles ball while trying to kick out and quickly regains control. I let play continue.

3) Free kick right on the edge of the box; I am right on top of it. An attacker tries to take it quickly, and in a very crowded area a collision happens (not a foul either way for me). I come back for ceremonial when perhaps I should have played on. Match was in a slightly fiery, tense stage.

4) Restarting play before subs can get into tactical position. Coach blames a goal concession on it, but LOTG only specify that they enter the field. A common sense one perhaps.

5) Away team is losing faith in CAR. I don't see a problem. They want me to talk to him. Response?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
From my ivory tower:
1) Well done, well handled
2) IDFK by your description
3) Play on by your description... *hint* unless there is a reason to bring back the DFK e.g. moving ball. If you blow to stop play after the attackers have chosen to play and there was no reason to have ceremonial, then you could cover your a** here by saying it was a moving ball and demand a ceremonial retake ;)
4) We are not supposed to give teams an extra benefit by waiting for them to assume their positions (especially true of line changes in futsal - we wait for no one, clock is ticking). All teams know that if they ask for a sub at a corner it is at their own risk. You can choose to manage this if you like but IMHO it is up to the team to manage it. I'm not going to try to stitch them up but I am not holding the game up for another 30 seconds. That's not fair.
5) You decide who, when and how to talk to your assistants. Short shrift.
 
1. His walking

2. Happy with letting play continue

3. Correct thing always round the box is a ceremonial direct free kick

4. Held play until sub was in position

5. Losing faith by what exactly explain
 
SLI39 said:
Couple of incidents from yesterday on which I wouldn't mind a second opinion:

1) Literally in the first minute of a local derby, U15s, division 1, an away midfielder protests a throw-in decision with the words "that's cheating", as much directed at the CAR as at me. I explained to him in audible range of his own touchline that he obviously didn't realise the seriousness of what he had said and that he should tread very carefully for rest of the match. He was subbed a few minutes later (coincidence?) and wasn't a major problem thereafter. Was that a cop-out?

2) Goalkeeper fumbles ball while trying to kick out and quickly regains control. I let play continue.

3) Free kick right on the edge of the box; I am right on top of it. An attacker tries to take it quickly, and in a very crowded area a collision happens (not a foul either way for me). I come back for ceremonial when perhaps I should have played on. Match was in a slightly fiery, tense stage.

4) Restarting play before subs can get into tactical position. Coach blames a goal concession on it, but LOTG only specify that they enter the field. A common sense one perhaps.

5) Away team is losing faith in CAR. I don't see a problem. They want me to talk to him. Response?

Thanks.
Click to expand...
1) Spot on in my opinion, well handled

2) Common sense would suggest that at this level of grassroots football (especially if no one expects/wants it) play on. In law IDFK. Again I agree with what you did

3) For me, in an attacking position like this, no quick ones, players usually understand why. If they score from a quick free kick, especially when you're stood right on top of it, you're gonna have a whole world of problems on your hands. Get to the spot, effectively stand on the ball and make sure everyone (taker and goal keeper) that its on the whistle.

4) Something I messed up on a while ago; always give them chance to get in position (you can add the time on at the end if necessary so other team aren't disadvantaged), but do not start until the player's ready. An easy tip, when he/she looks in position just ask them if they're ready with the universal thumbs up, that way if they say yes there's no way the team can later claim they weren't. Just don't start until everyone's ready (no matter how much you may be able to according to the LOTG), it will only cause you more problems.

5) Probably talk to the captain, explain the CAR's a volunteer, he's doing his best and its better than you trying to do it on your own (if none of these is actually true then you need to be asking yourself whether the CAR should be allowed to continue), and that their comments are becoming borderline dissent.
 
What is all this crap about no quick free kicks around the box?
Utterly against the spirit of the game and all in the name of your 'match control'!
If you can't handle the grief from the team that didn't defend properly you SHOULD NOT BE IN THE MIDDLE!
 
It wasn't entirely match control. I think at a junior level, it's very important for players to understand what's happening. I just thought the most sensible thing to do was bring it back because I wasn't sure whether the team had messed up or if a defending player had failed to retreat.

On the CAR, thanks for the pointers. It was more the coaches who were turning their players against him. I said I would check he wasn't flagging incorrectly on subsequent calls, but I suppose I could have silenced the dissent earlier.
 
SLI39 said:
It wasn't entirely match control. I think at a junior level, it's very important for players to understand what's happening. I just thought the most sensible thing to do was bring it back because I wasn't sure whether the team had messed up or if a defending player had failed to retreat.

On the CAR, thanks for the pointers. It was more the coaches who were turning their players against him. I said I would check he wasn't flagging incorrectly on subsequent calls, but I suppose I could have silenced the dissent earlier.
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My comment wasn't really aimed at yourself but at others who should know better. If you let a quick free kick take place, the only way to pull it back is if you'd already said it was on the 'whistle' or for a technical infringement such as a moving ball. The ten yards is negated by the quick free kick, the attacking team can't have it both ways.
 
Yes, that's fair enough. But there's a difference between not being obliged to retreat the 10 yards and deliberately preventing a quick free kick from being taken (delaying the restart caution?). Out of interest, how do you ensure your eyes stay attentive to the possibility of a quick one? When I blow, I'm usually already preparing for a ceremonial set piece in my head.
 
If the defenders take up a position to prevent a quick free kick I'll tell them to move back the ten yards, if the attackers decide to take the kick before then or during that process and make a hash of it, tough luck, if it comes off and they score, that's good too.
About the only time I go ceremonial is when the attackers ask me to make sure the defensive wall is ten yards away.
Different mind set, I'm always prepared to give the quick free kick option unless I have had to have words caution etc.
 
SLI39 said:
Couple of incidents from yesterday on which I wouldn't mind a second opinion:

1) Literally in the first minute of a local derby, U15s, division 1, an away midfielder protests a throw-in decision with the words "that's cheating", as much directed at the CAR as at me. I explained to him in audible range of his own touchline that he obviously didn't realise the seriousness of what he had said and that he should tread very carefully for rest of the match. He was subbed a few minutes later (coincidence?) and wasn't a major problem thereafter. Was that a cop-out?

2) Goalkeeper fumbles ball while trying to kick out and quickly regains control. I let play continue.

3) Free kick right on the edge of the box; I am right on top of it. An attacker tries to take it quickly, and in a very crowded area a collision happens (not a foul either way for me). I come back for ceremonial when perhaps I should have played on. Match was in a slightly fiery, tense stage.

4) Restarting play before subs can get into tactical position. Coach blames a goal concession on it, but LOTG only specify that they enter the field. A common sense one perhaps.

5) Away team is losing faith in CAR. I don't see a problem. They want me to talk to him. Response?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

1. Not a cop out at all. You did something and the players behaviour was improved after your actions. The solution doesn't always have to be cards, and I think this is a pretty excellent example of how you can manage situations without them.

2. Technically, IDFK but if everyone can see it's a an accidental fumble where the player has gained no advantage then I think you could defend, at that age, allowing play to continue.

3. Credible for you to bring it back once you're on top of it, but you can pre-empt this by announcing that it's ceremonial once you've decided it's going to be. Different refs have different criteria for this (i.e. If it's within shooting distance, always ceremonial) so there is no 'right' answer IMO. By the sounds of it, slowing it down was the right choice because of the temperature of the game, but if you communicate that it's ceremonial. And remember, plenty of ways to justify a re-take. The ball may not have been on the correct spot, or it may have been moving.....

4. Always let them get back into position. You lose nothing by doing it, but your club marks will go down like the Titanic if you blow for a restart quickly and they concede because the subs man was unmarked.

5. Whether you talk to him or not should be determined by how you view his performance, not by how they do. If you are happy with him, then politely remind them that further complaints may be classified as dissent. If you're not, then you can speak to him or remove him entirely if it's particularly bad. But don't go and speak to him just because they ask you to, as that shifts the power dynamic from you to them.
 
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SLI39 said:
Thanks very much for your thoughts. I realise 5 points can be a lot to cover!
On the goalkeeper decision, I now think it should have been an IFK. But I may have been the only person on the pitch who noticed he had released possession instead of bouncing; quite a subtle one.

For the quick FK, it was partly because of the match temperature, but I also couldn't see if it had been taken legally.

As for substitutions, I never normally get picked up for this; 90% of the time I make eye contact and wait for the thumb-up. In this situation it was probably exacerbated by the fact the throw-in took place on the other side of a big pitch.
In a yellow card scenario, I suppose you could say something like, if I had enough time to put the book away, get into my position and blow, there's no excuse for a player.
Click to expand...

On the GK one, don't expect anyone else to know the correct decision.

Its happened to me this season in a Womens PL game - no one appealed, yet no one argued with the FK award either - general bafflement was the order of the day!
 
Right do not and I repeat again do not allow a quick free kick around the penalty area what happens if one a player already on a caution fouls again in a reckless manner then you got to second caution red card just for the matter of common sense do the ceromonial and keep your match control
 
I'm going to disagree with Craig here. The point of a FK is to regain an advantage that was lost through an opponents illegal action - if the best way to regain that advantage is by going quick, you're almost obliged to do so. Obviously there are exceptions (you want to caution the offending player or you've done something to already indicate the FK will be ceremonial and doing otherwise would be deceptive), but as a general rule, you should be trying to do what the offended against side wants to do.
 
ref craig said:
Right do not and I repeat again do not allow a quick free kick around the penalty area what happens if one a player already on a caution fouls again in a reckless manner then you got to second caution red card just for the matter of common sense do the ceromonial and keep your match control
Click to expand...

Or, providing the ball is stationary and the kick is taken from the correct spot (and you don't need to caution etc) let the offended team take a chance with a quick free kick.

Obviously it has to be "quick" I.e they don't mill around and wait for the defenders to start sorting out the wall etc.

As for the possibility of a player picking up a second caution, so what? We can't control what players do, and I'm not going to disadvantage the fouled team unless it is necessary or I need to slow the game down a bit.
 
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