The Ref Stop

First Game with NARs

Big Cat

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
It didn't really occur to me at the time, but the Youth Cup Final I refereed yesterday was the first time I've had neutral qualified assistants. Although I had a reasonable game in the middle, I was thrown out of kilter by the NARs
On one occasion, I knew the keeper had been fouled, but i waited for the assistant to signal before blowing because the AR had a better view. I really felt uncomfortable with this and should have blown promptly without waiting for affirmation
I also had a team work issue with the other NAR who flagged for a foul which I didn't want to give. I ended up blowing after maybe 3 to 4 seconds to give the foul and the attacking team scored from the resultant free kick for which I took a bit of stick
I expect to have my second game with NARs this Sunday. Until I get my head round the concept, I'm inclined to instruct them not to give fouls
Any thoughts for us referees not yet accustomed to working well as a team?
 
The Ref Stop
Exactly that if u feel more comfortable with them just giving offsides then tell them.

Maybe u were unlucky with the AR that u got & he wasn’t really on the same page as you.

As a Lino unless the referee has blatantly not seen something & I mean big enough that I can’t ignore it then I’m leaving the decision making to them, I’ll just concentrate on offside & ball in & out.

Just be clear in your brief to them pre match & hopefuly it should go a bit smoother.
 
Big Cat said:
Until I get my head round the concept, I'm inclined to instruct them not to give fouls
Any thoughts for us referees not yet accustomed to working well as a team?
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(Edit: I haven't been with NAR for a long time, so this is just off memory.)

I wouldn't do that. I think someone on here (Rusty I think?) gave an example where a referee did that, but for penalties, and an assessor called them out for it. - Remember, they're qualified referees, and they're giving what they see. I'm inclined to side with them on the field unless it's a massive error, and discuss the event later in the privacy of the dressing rooms if you're still unhappy about it. Unfortunately, you don't get much practice with them to iron out these kinks over time, unless you're lucky enough to get a regular team.


I personally think a key factor is communication and body language. Ask your NAR to make eye contact prior to making the decision, this way you can communicate to each other: "I don't know, help me out" or "No, keep going" via body language, hand signals etc. I assume you're dividing the pitch into thirds: If you are, and you've given them their own third to deal with, then back them, but don't be afraid to make a call on your own - i.e. That goalkeeper example, if you see something, don't wait for the flag, blow for it as they may not have seen it. In the middle, eye contact and body language all the way. In your third, they should have no business getting involved in general.

Oh, and always smile! :p
 
Try defining the zones of responsibility more explicitly? I tend to tell my NAR's to take the lead in a 10-yard semi-circle around themselves, and let me take the lead in all other situations unless I'm way up-field and have been caught out by a quick break. That goes for fouls, throws and GK's/corners. I don't want to waste their knowledge and experience, but at the same time, I need to be prepared to take the lead as well.

So I'd suggest that in your first example, that's very likely to be simply a more credible decision for you to make, so you should have been more proactive about leading it. Similarly, unless the second foul was right under his nose, you should have briefed the NAR not to get involved. And if it was under his nose, perhaps you do need to accept that he may have seen something you didn't?
 
Neither NAR did anything wrong. I just learned something I didn't expect. Assistance is only helpful if you're experienced in having it
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Let’s not turn this into another NARs are useless thread! :aliens:
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No, let's not go over any old ground! I don't think they're useless......
Well actually, maybe they are. I gave them one simple job to do....check studs and equipment (my favorite!). Then low & behold midway thru the 2nd half, a player on the losing team starts having a pop at me because an opponent has the wrong color sock tape!! Adam & Eve it? So, a quick 'none of your business' shut him up (already on a yellow), before his mate decided to take up the mantle. Now, I know the second protagonist to be a qualified referee himself, so there was less than a nano second before he saw yellow. The bloody cheek of it... and the irony to tickle the likes of Padfoot
 
Big Cat said:
Neither NAR did anything wrong. I just learned something I didn't expect. Assistance is only helpful if you're experienced in having it
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I'd say more specifically is that assistance is only helpful if you're expecting it. Both of your issues above seem to have come from a lack of clarity around when you did/didn't want their input - the first example you wanted a signal when it wasn't coming, while the second you would rather it was left to yourself.

The method I mentioned previously is my personal approach regarding that, but it's definitely something you need to put some thought into. When do I actually want my assistant's help? And how do I get that message across to them clearly pre-match in a way that doesn't leave them in two minds during the match? You have to get your head around a clear answer to that first question before you can worry about the second, and you have to be able to answer the second, otherwise the AR's will just go with their instincts/AR experience and that may clash with what you actually want.
 
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NARs maybe need to be reminded that they rarely need to flag fouls... anything over 5m and they should only be flagging if you need help i.e. shrug of the shoulders.

But it's a two way street... as a ref you need to react... either blow, say "carry on", shake the head, cut the grass... something... if you don't react then your assistants will take over!

You will also give your ARs confidence if you remind them that you might whistle for a foul right in front of them if they have to look for offside...

It is amazing how infrequently an AR needs to flag a foul... one in a million on a break away or penalty that the ref is blindsided, maybe a "credibility" flag with the ref when there is a tug in front of you... And ARs need reminding that, even with fouls right in front of them... wait! If there is a potential advantage.
 
We work in 3 referee systems here mostly with all 3 being certified referees. It is a HUGE help but the previous poster was spot on. Communication during the game is critical. A good pre-game is essential. AR's are there to A-SSIST not IN-SIST. When I am center and working with AR's who are new to refereeing, my pre-game generally consists of:
"If you would, please watch the feet on the throws, I'll watch for the grabbing and pulling.
I'll get high in the corners because I know it is hard to see who touched it from 50 yards away. Same with goal kick's and corners on the far side from you. If you aren't sure, just let me know it is out and I'll make the call. We should make eye contact on everything. I'll give you a slight cheat (hand in the direction I think it is out and low away from my body) and you give me one (flag slightly out but low to the side you think it should be). If we disagree and it is in your quadrant, I'm going with you. If it is in mine, please mirror me or give me a signal that you are CERTAIN. Let's try to signal together whenever possible. Offsides is all yours and is your number 1 job and primary focus. Fouls are secondary. You'll get a feel for what I'm calling and what I'm letting play. If you see a foul in your quadrant that I couldn't see and you think I WOULD HAVE CALLED IT, please flag it. If it is a penalty, let me have first crack if possible but if it is a penalty let's be certain. I'll make eye contact with you on almost every stoppage. If I couldn't see something during the run of play, I'll make eye contact with you to see what you thought of it. If you need me to come deal with a problem, just wave me over. If I miss your flag on anything, keep holding it and we will come back to it. If I ever wave your flag down on something, no worries, I just saw something different from my angle. Please follow EVERYTHING to the goal line. Strange things happen and we must be there. If you are the trail AR, please help me keep an eye out for any conflicts behind the play. Things get chaotic after hard fouls, If you could help me keep track of jersey numbers of any offenders, that would be great as I know they love to try to disappear into a crowd. Any questions for me? Let's have some fun"
 
Big Cat said:
It didn't really occur to me at the time, but the Youth Cup Final I refereed yesterday was the first time I've had neutral qualified assistants. Although I had a reasonable game in the middle, I was thrown out of kilter by the NARs
On one occasion, I knew the keeper had been fouled, but i waited for the assistant to signal before blowing because the AR had a better view. I really felt uncomfortable with this and should have blown promptly without waiting for affirmation
I also had a team work issue with the other NAR who flagged for a foul which I didn't want to give. I ended up blowing after maybe 3 to 4 seconds to give the foul and the attacking team scored from the resultant free kick for which I took a bit of stick
I expect to have my second game with NARs this Sunday. Until I get my head round the concept, I'm inclined to instruct them not to give fouls
Any thoughts for us referees not yet accustomed to working well as a team?
Click to expand...
Well, this challenge is the same for AR's - learning when AR input is required.

For the first one, if there was a delay it may be that the AR thought you had seen it. Were you clearly looking to the AR? Were they looking to you to see what you wanted? Usually my instructions are something along the lines of that you're more likely to want their input if it's in their area. IF it's more in the middle and you don't have a good view then go for it - and if you're looking over to them then you're wanting an opinion. Given it was in the PA, the AR would only be calling this if you're asking for help - or they've clearly seen something and it's blatantly clear you haven't. And even then it's only iffy. So really, the AR shouldn't intervene unless you're clearly asking for help.

Don't wait for your AR to flag. If you think it's a foul, give it. Even when it's right in front of the AR - don't just wait for them. If you think it's a foul, make the decision. As you get more experienced - and you've learned how to detect the capabilities of your NAR - then you'll gradually learn to depend on them more. But in the meantime, still do your normal game but look to them for an opinion IF you need it. And that's why it's important for them to look for a lot of eye contact - a little shake of the head can be helpful.

For the 2nd...yeah, that's a tough one. Sometimes when there's a potential foul, yelling out 'no foul! keep playing!' is as much for your ARs as it is for the players! Where was the foul in relation to the AR?

I'd argue against telling them not to give fouls It's a great way to have your AR's thinking that they shouldn't have bothered turning up before you even take the field. It doesn't portray you well.

IF you know they're inexperienced then you can say to them not to worry too much about fouls unless they're comfortable, but that's different.
 
OK, well thanks for the replies. Maybe I went into the game without a plan, but that's reasonable given my virgin status. No massive dramas incurred, just didn't expect NARs to turn a headache into a migraine through no fault of their own! I get the chance to roll the dice again this weekend, this time with a different mindset
 
Big Cat said:
OK, well thanks for the replies. Maybe I went into the game without a plan, but that's reasonable given my virgin status. No massive dramas incurred, just didn't expect NARs to turn a headache into a migraine through no fault of their own! I get the chance to roll the dice again this weekend, this time with a different mindset
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For starting out with AR briefing - and if the ARs are beginners - I think you need to just have the basics.

For me the starter set is:
- Goal/no goal - get to the goal line, make the decision on or close to the goal line, use the right signals, do the dash for the cameras!
- Wait and see at offsides - don't stop while waiting, and don't be offended if I wave the flag down, it has to happen like that sometimes
- Signal together - no panic, strong tips, take your time, look to me first before signalling unless it is right next to you

Then you can add the more advanced stuff, like offences/distance, incorrect throws, pen in/out of box, mass con, watch the wall/hands, come on the pitch for wall distance in your corner.. etc etc
 
If you didn't give any clear instructions before the game then that is unfortunately your problem. You need to spend around 10 minutes telling them what you want from them. Someone has said it, but you need to define areas of responsibility. You don't want them flagging for a free kick on the far side of the pitch, but likewise you don't want to be giving a free kick right under their noses as that kills their credibility.

You say you saw the foul on the keeper, so give it without waiting for the assistant. Unless the foul happened right out at the side of the area near the assistant I'm struggling to see how the assistant had the better view. When there is a challenge in the penalty area you really need to be no more that 10 yards, or 20 at most, from that area, so you should have at least as good a view as the assistant does. Sounds like you might have been on your heels a bit, so perhaps one to think about.

Absolutely do NOT tell NARs offsides and ball out of play only. They are qualified referees, may be the same of even higher level than you, and they are a valuable tool that you need to use, you just need to make sure you use them well. As RobOda said, I've seen this approach taken and it rarely ends well, especially as you move to senior levels and get observed. Let's say you took this approach and there is a red card offence, or a missed penalty in the assistant's credible zone. Observers normally talk to the assistants first in the debrief, and he is undoubtedly going to be asking the active one why he didn't flag. One of three things are going to happen here, none of them good ...

- you explain to the observer that you said you didn't want help on such incidents. Your mark is immediately heading South at some pace.

- you don't say anything, thus throwing your AR to the wolves. Luckily he keeps quiet and takes one for the team, but will hate you for ever more and word will get round that you aren't a team player. His mark is heading South but not at the same pace as your reputation and credibility are.

- you don't say anything, thus throwing your AR to the wolves. Not willing to take the blame he points at you and says "he told me not to give anything other than offsides and ball in and out". Now you have a predicament, you could own up in which case your mark is heading South. Or you could lie then the assistant is in trouble. Unless of course the other AR speaks up to corroborate his story, in which case your mark, reputation and credibility are all in tatters.

I've been in changing rooms where two of those scenarios have occurred and it is not good, nor is the journey home if you are joint travelling …. :mad:
 
RustyRef said:
If you didn't give any clear instructions before the game then that is unfortunately your problem. You need to spend around 10 minutes telling them what you want from them. Someone has said it, but you need to define areas of responsibility. You don't want them flagging for a free kick on the far side of the pitch, but likewise you don't want to be giving a free kick right under their noses as that kills their credibility.

You say you saw the foul on the keeper, so give it without waiting for the assistant. Unless the foul happened right out at the side of the area near the assistant I'm struggling to see how the assistant had the better view. When there is a challenge in the penalty area you really need to be no more that 10 yards, or 20 at most, from that area, so you should have at least as good a view as the assistant does. Sounds like you might have been on your heels a bit, so perhaps one to think about.

Absolutely do NOT tell NARs offsides and ball out of play only. They are qualified referees, may be the same of even higher level than you, and they are a valuable tool that you need to use, you just need to make sure you use them well. As RobOda said, I've seen this approach taken and it rarely ends well, especially as you move to senior levels and get observed. Let's say you took this approach and there is a red card offence, or a missed penalty in the assistant's credible zone. Observers normally talk to the assistants first in the debrief, and he is undoubtedly going to be asking the active one why he didn't flag. One of three things are going to happen here, none of them good ...

- you explain to the observer that you said you didn't want help on such incidents. Your mark is immediately heading South at some pace.

- you don't say anything, thus throwing your AR to the wolves. Luckily he keeps quiet and takes one for the team, but will hate you for ever more and word will get round that you aren't a team player. His mark is heading South but not at the same pace as your reputation and credibility are.

- you don't say anything, thus throwing your AR to the wolves. Not willing to take the blame he points at you and says "he told me not to give anything other than offsides and ball in and out". Now you have a predicament, you could own up in which case your mark is heading South. Or you could lie then the assistant is in trouble. Unless of course the other AR speaks up to corroborate his story, in which case your mark, reputation and credibility are all in tatters.

I've been in changing rooms where two of those scenarios have occurred and it is not good, nor is the journey home if you are joint travelling …. :mad:
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Rusty, the OP was merely intended to remind you old timers of what it's like when just starting out. I decided not to give any instruction as I had no experience on which to draw. Also, I was surprised at the peculiar mental side of finding myself in charge of a team; leading to uncertainty, hesitancy and ultimately mistakes. Stick two pilots in a ****pit and ask them to just get on with it and it might be an interesting flight! This Sunday, I'll have one game to go on, plus the advice from the thread
 
Funny that ****pit breached the forum's swearing filter and got the **** treatment haha
 
Big Cat said:
Rusty, the OP was merely intended to remind you old timers of what it's like when just starting out. I decided not to give any instruction as I had no experience on which to draw. Also, I was surprised at the peculiar mental side of finding myself in charge of a team; leading to uncertainty, hesitancy and ultimately mistakes. Stick two pilots in a ****pit and ask them to just get on with it and it might be an interesting flight! This Sunday, I'll have one game to go on, plus the advice from the thread
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I wasn't criticising, sorry if it sounded like that. We all start somewhere and have to learn, nothing better than learning on the job.

Hopefully you have enough ideas from this thread to help you on Sunday.
 
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