The Ref Stop

Everton Penalty v Liverpool?

lincs22 said:
Was it a soft penalty, Yes
But there was an unnecessary push in the back, so there was an offence = Penalty.
Ignore what hasn't been given/missed during the rest of the match / season. Good decision by the referee.
But Liverpool should have won the game well before the penalty occurred.

If you @PinnerPaul don't think it was a penalty, then I ask to consider your judgement.
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'Consider my judgement' ???? That's a bit ott - especially when I have given my rationale - there is no consistency. At corners you see far more contact and blatant pushing/pulling that isn't given. Defenders place arms on/in the back of attackers all the time as part of the game.
Obviously I didn't have view of match ref and he clearly thought it was a pen - that's all that matters in the end - I didn't - but to say it was 'obvious' enough for me to 'question my judgement' is a nonsense.
 
The Ref Stop
PinnerPaul said:
'Consider my judgement' ???? That's a bit ott - especially when I have given my rationale - there is no consistency. At corners you see far more contact and blatant pushing/pulling that isn't given. Defenders place arms on/in the back of attackers all the time as part of the game.
Obviously I didn't have view of match ref and he clearly thought it was a pen - that's all that matters in the end - I didn't - but to say it was 'obvious' enough for me to 'question my judgement' is a nonsense.
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Taking the incident in isolation why don't you think its a penalty? Rationale of "you see this at corners all the time" isnt really justification for awarding or not awarding a penalty or a foul anywhere on the park for that matter.
I get its all about opinions, and you are entitled to yours, however, because something may or may not happen in an alternative scenario doesnt really work.
For example take an dissent scenario. Well i see player show dissent all the time so I am not going to sanction it. You have to take each individual incident and decision and deal with it on its own merit.
Fwiw corners are very different. Upto 21 players usually a minimum of 8 or 9 defender and 7 or 8 attackers all crammed into one small ish area its going to be hard to spot every touch, push and pull. I will hold my hands up and say I probably miss a load of decisions every gane at these scenarios for a multitude of reasons the main one being its hard to spot and you have to be sure its foul contact on the attacker and not the other way etc.
This one is two player coming close together, referee looking down the barrel of a gun at it in what i feel was a good and correct position to be in. The stills above show not only a push (yes its a light push but try being pushed travelling at that speed, very difficult to reatain balance) but also defender pulling the attackers arm. Its a good, reasonable and valid penalty imo. So whilst I wont be as blunt as consider your judgement i would ask what your rationale was in not awarding a penalty taking the incident in isolation on its own merit?
 
Step across the player, slow down, feel the contact and go down. How to win a penalty 101. A defender at this level shouldn't be putting himself in that position.
 
JamesL said:
Taking the incident in isolation why don't you think its a penalty? Rationale of "you see this at corners all the time" isnt really justification for awarding or not awarding a penalty or a foul anywhere on the park for that matter.
I get its all about opinions, and you are entitled to yours, however, because something may or may not happen in an alternative scenario doesnt really work.
For example take an dissent scenario. Well i see player show dissent all the time so I am not going to sanction it. You have to take each individual incident and decision and deal with it on its own merit.
Fwiw corners are very different. Upto 21 players usually a minimum of 8 or 9 defender and 7 or 8 attackers all crammed into one small ish area its going to be hard to spot every touch, push and pull. I will hold my hands up and say I probably miss a load of decisions every gane at these scenarios for a multitude of reasons the main one being its hard to spot and you have to be sure its foul contact on the attacker and not the other way etc.
This one is two player coming close together, referee looking down the barrel of a gun at it in what i feel was a good and correct position to be in. The stills above show not only a push (yes its a light push but try being pushed travelling at that speed, very difficult to reatain balance) but also defender pulling the attackers arm. Its a good, reasonable and valid penalty imo. So whilst I wont be as blunt as consider your judgement i would ask what your rationale was in not awarding a penalty taking the incident in isolation on its own merit?
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Thanks James - its nice to have a considered debate - rather than some responses (not just this thread) that borde,r on the 'I'm right, you're wrong' approach. I get plenty of that on QPR fan site - come on here for a break!

Widening the discussion - I am genuinely puzzled by you saying we shouldn't reference other decisions when considering a possible offence.

Shouldn't we be looking for a consistent approach within our games?

Am often told by refs as part of briefing to ARs that we should try to mirror his approach to fouls - that's referencing his decisions when deciding what to give/not give is it not?

My point is I was genuinely surprised to see this given as a pen when, IMHO, and that's all it is an opinion, at that level you see numerous examples of more robust contact not given. My point was that was especially evident at corners - but its not exclusive to set plays.

My final point is that of course as 'live' refs we don't get to see incident numerous times, post stills (as above!), nor debate it over several days.

For 'TV pens' I go with my first reaction, as we have to with 'live' decisions - and my first reaction here was no pen. Accept it seems based on this thread I was wrong - not the first time, won't be the last. We have all made 'mistakes' - should we all be 'questioning our judgement'? I think not!
 
I get what you are saying about consistency; we all strive for it. But that being said we only get 1 look and you can only give what you've seen.
With respect of assisting, that exactly it, assisting - the decision is down to the referee. I like a physical game myself but not only that I want the little pushes and pulls to bring the temperature down if I need to. Last thing I want is my assistant giving those early on when not required leaving me no tolerance level to come down to if things start getting a bit heated.
I see your argument about the more robust contact in other situations. I dont think its a consistency issue - we'd love to spot and penalise everything but more often than not its either you havent seen it, unsiggted or looking elsewhere or 2 players giving as good as they are getting in which vase Id rather play on if i can rather than stop and dropped ball.
Like i say the push is, for me, or at least seems to be exaggerated by the defender which makes it an l obvious push easy to penalise. He didnt even try and be clever or cute about it. Id liken it to the aerial challenges you see where the defender or attacker telegraphs the push, its just so easy to give... and I tell them that too.
Truth is anywhere else on the pitch this foul goes unspoken of. Its only that its a KMI any1 wants to debate it and i think he general consensus is whilst soft, on the defenders part, it is a push and therefore a foul. As alluded to above we want to be consistent but I'd go one step further and say we want to be consistently correct.
 
JamesL said:
I get what you are saying about consistency; we all strive for it. But that being said we only get 1 look and you can only give what you've seen.
With respect of assisting, that exactly it, assisting - the decision is down to the referee. I like a physical game myself but not only that I want the little pushes and pulls to bring the temperature down if I need to. Last thing I want is my assistant giving those early on when not required leaving me no tolerance level to come down to if things start getting a bit heated.
I see your argument about the more robust contact in other situations. I dont think its a consistency issue - we'd love to spot and penalise everything but more often than not its either you havent seen it, unsiggted or looking elsewhere or 2 players giving as good as they are getting in which vase Id rather play on if i can rather than stop and dropped ball.
Like i say the push is, for me, or at least seems to be exaggerated by the defender which makes it an l obvious push easy to penalise. He didnt even try and be clever or cute about it. Id liken it to the aerial challenges you see where the defender or attacker telegraphs the push, its just so easy to give... and I tell them that too.
Truth is anywhere else on the pitch this foul goes unspoken of. Its only that its a KMI any1 wants to debate it and i think he general consensus is whilst soft, on the defenders part, it is a push and therefore a foul. As alluded to above we want to be consistent but I'd go one step further and say we want to be consistently correct.
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Cheers James
 
PinnerPaul said:
'Consider my judgement' ???? That's a bit ott - especially when I have given my rationale - there is no consistency. At corners you see far more contact and blatant pushing/pulling that isn't given. Defenders place arms on/in the back of attackers all the time as part of the game.
Obviously I didn't have view of match ref and he clearly thought it was a pen - that's all that matters in the end - I didn't - but to say it was 'obvious' enough for me to 'question my judgement' is a nonsense.
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The difference at corners is there is usually a lot going on and the referee's eyes have to be all over the place. Whereas in this case all the referee is looking at is the two players, he sees the arms come out and push him, he has a decision to make. Plus as I said before, the angle he had looked like much more of a push than the other TV angles showed.
 
I don't see the pull. I thought - and still think - no pen because the attacker slows down and Lovren raises his arms to prevent himself running into him.
Problem is I am a raving 'Pool and Klopp fan so I can't be trusted to give an opinion on the turning point of a derby.

Anyway, there is far too much doubt here for it to satisfy the foul criteria for me.

(I have started on the futsal again, and there are extra guidelines that allow for players to push off each other to prevent collisions... passing thought)
 
santa sangria said:
I don't see the pull. I thought - and still think - no pen because the attacker slows down and Lovren raises his arms to prevent himself running into him.
Problem is I am a raving 'Pool and Klopp fan so I can't be trusted to give an opinion on the turning point of a derby.

Anyway, there is far too much doubt here for it to satisfy the foul criteria for me.

(I have started on the futsal again, and there are extra guidelines that allow for players to push off each other to prevent collisions... passing thought)
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That's certainly what I saw, especially when you see the replay from the opposite side to what the ref would have seen. But again, I'm not entirely neutral here!
 
PinnerPaul said:
For 'TV pens' I go with my first reaction, as we have to with 'live' decisions - and my first reaction here was no pen. Accept it seems based on this thread I was wrong - not the first time, won't be the last. We have all made 'mistakes' - should we all be 'questioning our judgement'? I think not!
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Agreed, there is minimal contact here and to me I was appalled that it was given as a penalty as a referee, as a Liverpool fan you have no idea how shocked I was that this was given. Every contact in a game must now be viewed as a free kick good luck with the corners and freekicks in England, at least over here not one referee I have talked to including FIFA officials thought it was a penalty.
 
Minimal contact, lots of contact, immense amounts of contact, equals free kick equals pen
No contact at all equals no foul.
 
Full disclosure - I'm not in a camp for either team

Root of the question for me - if an attacker beats a defender to the position and is within playing distance of the ball, does not jump back into defender and defender makes contact into the attackers back knocking the attacker off balance resulting in loss of possession is it a push or foul charge from behind? (Note: must watch for diving). For me the answer is yes in this instance. I'm a defender/holding mid. The arm high on the back is needless and I still say this is a stupid play by Lovren. Just came in two hot. Getting there second in the PA is foolish

Reading from across the pond it is interesting to read the opinions of those who are fans of either team ;)
 
A Freethinker said:
Agreed, there is minimal contact here and to me I was appalled that it was given as a penalty as a referee, as a Liverpool fan you have no idea how shocked I was that this was given. Every contact in a game must now be viewed as a free kick good luck with the corners and freekicks in England, at least over here not one referee I have talked to including FIFA officials thought it was a penalty.
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Penalty all day long......your disgust should be directed towards your defender for making such a stupid challenge rather than the referee for correctly awarding a penalty.
 
A Freethinker said:
Agreed, there is minimal contact here and to me I was appalled that it was given as a penalty as a referee, as a Liverpool fan you have no idea how shocked I was that this was given. Every contact in a game must now be viewed as a free kick good luck with the corners and freekicks in England, at least over here not one referee I have talked to including FIFA officials thought it was a penalty.
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Being polite and humouring you.......
 
Padfoot said:
Being polite and humouring you.......
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No actually giving genuine opinions, even the Utd supporters couldn't believe it!

As I said if you fell that was a penalty good luck every Saturday when there is contact between two players awarding free kicks and penalties all over the show!
 
There is is huge difference between being a contact sport and a blatant push, both defender and attacker knew what they were doing, defenders shouldn't push (in that situation) and a clever attacker is only too happy to oblige in going down from the push. Thats not cheating, he WAS pushed, soft, yes, penalty, yes, foul anywhere else on the park, yes, yes. yes!!!!!
 
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