A&H

EURO 24 Belarus vs Israel

dylanbailey4444

Well-Known Member
Level 5 Referee
The PGMOL have just put out a tweet saying that Jarred Gillet is leading a team of 6 PGMOL officials. Michael Salisbury is the 4th official?
I didn’t think he was FIFA Listed?
Or have I got this wrong?
I thought you had to be FIFA listed to do any international matches?
 
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I may be mistaken but Euro 2024 is Uefa so fifa badge isn’t required.
 
I think it's also important to realize that a match like this will be down the list in terms of who is officiating it. The really, really big matches will have a full crew of officials who are their respective UEFA "Elite" lists. I'm sure that one of the qualifications to be on that Elite list is to be on the FIFA panel. For England, Taylor and Oliver would be the two referees on the Elite list.

The farther down the list you go, the greater probability exists that a given fourth official, AR, or VAR/AVAR may be on the UEFA list, but in the lower tiers. FIFA designation may or may not be a part of that.
 
Makes a bit of a mockery of the hoops Gillette has had to jump through since moving to England, at least UEFA have the sense to give him some decent games.
 
Makes a bit of a mockery of the hoops Gillette has had to jump through since moving to England, at least UEFA have the sense to give him some decent games.
I’ve never really understood why a referee wouldn’t stay on the FIFA list when moving like this. It isn’t like Jared Gillet suddenly became a worse referee because he moved from Australia to Liverpool. I said the same thing when Ali Faghani moved to Australia from Iran.

The world is becoming a more connected and smaller place. We will see more moves like this in the future.
 
I’ve never really understood why a referee wouldn’t stay on the FIFA list when moving like this.
Because, for better or worse, FIFA badges are by country And countries have a cap. Why should the refs working their way up be bounced down the ladder because someone wants to move to the country (which could be someone who never would have been able to get that far up the ladder in the destination coI try.
 
I’ve never really understood why a referee wouldn’t stay on the FIFA list when moving like this. It isn’t like Jared Gillet suddenly became a worse referee because he moved from Australia to Liverpool. I said the same thing when Ali Faghani moved to Australia from Iran.

The world is becoming a more connected and smaller place. We will see more moves like this in the future.

Because he wasn't officiating in the top flight when he moved here. This is a condition for a FIFA badge.

Faghani also stayed on Iran's list as he was officiating in both countries top flights and has only been added to Australia's list since Iran dropped him.
 
Because he wasn't officiating in the top flight when he moved here. This is a condition for a FIFA badge.

Faghani also stayed on Iran's list as he was officiating in both countries top flights and has only been added to Australia's list since Iran dropped him.
But there's no real good reason he couldn't have been put in England's top flight. That's a circular argument.

The reality is that he's always been an excellent official and the only issues I can recall him having since moving are getting PGMOL's constantly-moving "high bar" wrong. It's just a tedious sense of exceptionalism that's meant he's had to take 4 years to climb back to the equivalent level he was at before.
 
But there's no real good reason he couldn't have been put in England's top flight. That's a circular argument.

The reality is that he's always been an excellent official and the only issues I can recall him having since moving are getting PGMOL's constantly-moving "high bar" wrong. It's just a tedious sense of exceptionalism that's meant he's had to take 4 years to climb back to the equivalent level he was at before.
SG2 is the highest that a referee moving from abroad has ever been placed as far as I am aware. Bobby Madden was a FIFA referee but was only put in Leagues 1 and 2, and I know of other FIFA referees who have come in as L3 or even L4. There's a world of difference in refereeing in the EPL and the A-League , the standard of football is vastly difference. If he had been put in SG1 and had a nightmare PGMOL would have been blamed, and it could have even destroyed his confidence and English career before it had even got going.
 
SG2 is the highest that a referee moving from abroad has ever been placed as far as I am aware. Bobby Madden was a FIFA referee but was only put in Leagues 1 and 2, and I know of other FIFA referees who have come in as L3 or even L4. There's a world of difference in refereeing in the EPL and the A-League , the standard of football is vastly difference. If he had been put in SG1 and had a nightmare PGMOL would have been blamed, and it could have even destroyed his confidence and English career before it had even got going.
Or he could have taken to it like a duck to water (as he seemingly has every time they've actually tried moving him up a notch in England) and not spent 4 years treading water just to get back to the games he should have been doing in the first place.

And Bobby Madden is a strange example to choose. He retired early at the end of this season in part because he found the step down so disheartening. I'm not sure that's an approach we should be trying to emulate.

That almost exactly illustrates my point - just because it's how things have always been done, doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. I'm not one for "poaching" officials from other leagues, but when there is a natural reason for talented officials to make the move, we should be trying to benefit from those talents rather than making them jump through unnecessary hoops just because we think English football is so special.
 
Or he could have taken to it like a duck to water (as he seemingly has every time they've actually tried moving him up a notch in England) and not spent 4 years treading water just to get back to the games he should have been doing in the first place.

And Bobby Madden is a strange example to choose. He retired early at the end of this season in part because he found the step down so disheartening. I'm not sure that's an approach we should be trying to emulate.

That almost exactly illustrates my point - just because it's how things have always been done, doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. I'm not one for "poaching" officials from other leagues, but when there is a natural reason for talented officials to make the move, we should be trying to benefit from those talents rather than making them jump through unnecessary hoops just because we think English football is so special.
That doesn't take away from the pretty much indisputable fact that the standard of football in the SPL and A-League is probably more aligned to the Championship than Premier League. If a FIFA referee from, as an example, Gibraltar moved to England, Spain or France, do you really think they would be placed in the top division? Absolutely no chance in my opinion.

Plus it wasn't four years, he spent two years in the Championship, arriving in 2019 and being promoted in 2021. We also don't know whether he even wanted to go straight into the Premier League. He moved to England to do a post-doctoral research position at a Liverpool university, and having known someone who has done one of those roles I would be amazed if they leave enough time to also be a full time referee.

Bobby Madden is a very good example to use, he was one of the top referees in Scotland but if you look at his appointments in England it would appear he struggled. He probably had more League 2 than League 1 games, didn't really have any top of the table games, and didn't get a trial Championship game like other Level 1 referees did. If he's struggling in League 1 then he clearly should have been nowhere near the Premier League, FIFA referee or not.
 
That doesn't take away from the pretty much indisputable fact that the standard of football in the SPL and A-League is probably more aligned to the Championship than Premier League. If a FIFA referee from, as an example, Gibraltar moved to England, Spain or France, do you really think they would be placed in the top division? Absolutely no chance in my opinion.

Plus it wasn't four years, he spent two years in the Championship, arriving in 2019 and being promoted in 2021. We also don't know whether he even wanted to go straight into the Premier League. He moved to England to do a post-doctoral research position at a Liverpool university, and having known someone who has done one of those roles I would be amazed if they leave enough time to also be a full time referee.

Bobby Madden is a very good example to use, he was one of the top referees in Scotland but if you look at his appointments in England it would appear he struggled. He probably had more League 2 than League 1 games, didn't really have any top of the table games, and didn't get a trial Championship game like other Level 1 referees did. If he's struggling in League 1 then he clearly should have been nowhere near the Premier League, FIFA referee or not.
However, he confesses he "didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would've".

"Probably the level of football wasn't what I expected," he said.
Fairly clear that Madden in part credits a drop in the standard of football as a factor in why he struggled to engage with it. Believe him or not, or argue that he deserved to be at that level - that's still a direct quote when asked why he's retiring early, because the football and the support structures around it were that much worse than he was used to. We know that for a fact, whereas your assumption that Championship football would have been too difficult for him is nothing more than speculation.

As for Gillet - going from doing 4 consecutive A-league grand finals in 40-50k seater stadiums and various internationals to the PL where average attendance is around 40k? That's not a wild step up in scale and he was also almost immediately trusted with PL VAR duties. I don't really believe anyone had any doubts about his ability or fitness and he's clearly proven capable over time - which is why it feels like unnecessary hoops and hurdles. And they're still ongoing because yes, despite being put in SG1 2 years ago, I said 4 years because if you look at his games he's still not getting any real prime appointments.
And does being SG2 plus a PL VAR really give you much more free time than being SG1? And if that really were a concern, why would he accept promotion after 2 years? That's clearly again just baseless speculation.

Random hypothetical referee Dave from Gibraltar has nothing to do with this, at no point did I say we should just throw any FIFA badge referee into Old Trafford. Decisions can be made on a case-by-case basis at this level, but PGMOL/the FA being overly-cautious is actively harmful because it will deter quality referees from making the move they otherwise might. If Szymon Marciniak needed to move to the UK next season, would you make him take the Gillet route?
 

Fairly clear that Madden in part credits a drop in the standard of football as a factor in why he struggled to engage with it. Believe him or not, or argue that he deserved to be at that level - that's still a direct quote when asked why he's retiring early, because the football and the support structures around it were that much worse than he was used to. We know that for a fact, whereas your assumption that Championship football would have been too difficult for him is nothing more than speculation.

As for Gillet - going from doing 4 consecutive A-league grand finals in 40-50k seater stadiums and various internationals to the PL where average attendance is around 40k? That's not a wild step up in scale and he was also almost immediately trusted with PL VAR duties. I don't really believe anyone had any doubts about his ability or fitness and he's clearly proven capable over time - which is why it feels like unnecessary hoops and hurdles. And they're still ongoing because yes, despite being put in SG1 2 years ago, I said 4 years because if you look at his games he's still not getting any real prime appointments.
And does being SG2 plus a PL VAR really give you much more free time than being SG1? And if that really were a concern, why would he accept promotion after 2 years? That's clearly again just baseless speculation.

Random hypothetical referee Dave from Gibraltar has nothing to do with this, at no point did I say we should just throw any FIFA badge referee into Old Trafford. Decisions can be made on a case-by-case basis at this level, but PGMOL/the FA being overly-cautious is actively harmful because it will deter quality referees from making the move they otherwise might. If Szymon Marciniak needed to move to the UK next season, would you make him take the Gillet route?
What did he expect, he must have watched English football and known what the standard was like? Although I'm not convinced that the top of league 1 is a whole lot different to the bottom of the SPL standard wise. I just don't buy that argument, a higher level referee should always be able to breeze lower levels, so if he is saying he struggled due to the lower standard of football that fully backs my argument.

My understanding is the demand on SG2 referees is way less than SG1. They are semi-full time rather than full time, that is a massive difference. A post-doctoral research position is typically for 2 years, if my mate is anything to go by you get no spare time to do anything during it, but if it is two years that ties with Gillett being promoted.
 
Let's not downplay the fact he was one of the top officials in Scotland before he left and was the go-to official for at least one of the Glasgow derbies every season - he probably wasn't spending a huge amount of time with the bottom of the SPL! So if we accept your premise that bottom of SPL = top of league 1, then yes, he was under-levelled given his experience with the top of the SPL.

The claim is that he struggled to stay motivated, which I do get - feeling like you're being forced to accept a demotion will have that effect. He's still only 44. It's not unreasonable for him to hope he'd get put in the Championship, get promoted in a year or two and then get a good number of matches under his belt in the PL before his natural retirement point in his mid-50s. Adding 2 years of slog at the start of that at a level clearly below what you think you're capable of and used to is going to have an effect on your motivation.

He also talks in the interview I posted about the long travel times from Carlisle. As someone who's done long travel for work, that's something you put up with for as long as you think it helps you get where you want in your career, and quickly becomes intolerable as soon as it seems like the end goal is out of reach. It's all just lots of little bits and pieces that add up to a sense that he's not being taken seriously and made to do busy work and jump through hoops that wouldn't be put in the way of an English referee with similar experience.
 
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