Ending a Conversation With a Manager

[BenS]

I might've titled this dreadfully, but I can't think of how else to put it.

I reffed my 8th game yesterday, so still very new! It was an younger age group cup game, so they're not used to competitive football, but in our area they have 'festivals' for a month twice a season where the games become competitive to try and get them used to it. One team's coach was appealing for everything, every single time there was a tackle you'd hear "ref!" or "that's a foul, ref". I let it slide for the first quarter but then his players started to catch on and that's when I decided to have a quiet word at the end of the second quarter to point out I'm reffing the game as I see it, I don't need his suggestions but would appreciate his support in letting me do my job.

In fairness to him, he quietened down until the final quarter when his team were 4 goals behind and the shouting started again. With about a minute to go, 2 players were running away from me clearly leaning into each other to try and win the ball, there was no foul but one player was bigger than the other. The coach claimed the bigger player (not on his team) put his arm across the throat of his player. I explained I can't see through them and can't award anything that I don't see. At the end of the game, as we shook hands, he asked why I felt it was ok for someone to put their hand across someone's throat. I explained from my angle it was 2 players competing for the ball and there didn't appear to be any movement that'd suggest a "strike" across the throat. He kept asking me the same question over and over about why it wasn't a foul and how touching someone's throat would always be a foul. I tried to say "this conversation is going in circles and I don't feel you will accept my explanation. Good game, well done, thanks" etc. but he wouldn't stop talking and I genuinely didn't know how to end the conversation. In hindsight, maybe I should've been more "forceful" but I felt reverting to threatening or showing cards would've taken it to another level. He wasn't being aggressive or abusive, just so, so persistent.

I've found my way with communication is to be as open and approachable as I can and it's served me well for all the other games, but just never come across anyone like this and didn't know if anyone had any tips/advice.

Thank you!

 

[Viridis1886]

If you are still on the field of play, C2 (Dissent). That should do it.

It sounds like you listened, explained, and tried to close the conversation politely. If he doesn't take the hint and then a direct telling, then I'd be cautioning him.

Dissent can be defined as being public, personal, or persistent. Set him up, give him a chance to withdraw. Caution if he doesn't.

Some coaches (and players) will never be content unless you say what they want to hear.

 

[one]

he asked why I felt it was ok for someone to put their hand across someone's throat.

When approached by players or coaches, 99 out of 100 you'd know they are not interested in what you have to say. They are just there to blame you for something. The tone of the way you have quoted him os very telling. None the less you can't be rude and have to be professional.

The way I deal with this (when I know the intent of the question) is simple and has worked with me. I explanation I am happy to answer the question but no follow up as that would change it to an argument. If he is happy with those terms I'd answer him. More often that not that would stop them from arguing. But in case of fllow ups, I'd just make can excuse to remove myself. Dont be tempted to get into an argument. They've had the last say and you have the chance to avoid an argument.

Basically avoid putting yourself in a no win situation. And you would see them coming before they start.

 

[NoFoulsAllowed]

It massively depends on who you are as a person. But I think taking the front foot, and being confident works for me.

E.g. explain everything politely as you did and being amicable as possible. But if they continue just shut them down and tell them they can continue this conversation in the changing room as it is getting embarrassing in front of everyone. I'd say the embarrassing part loud and firmly.

 

[santa sangria]

You've described another type of "low level dissent" and as the other posts have advised... use the yellow card. Asked to stop, told to stop... still going... card!

 

[Gabriel]

This is a perfect way to learn how to deal with low level dissent. I'd say when it starts getting on your nerves, a quick "appreciate your feedback, good game, thank you and bye" should do the trick most of the time. If it doesn't, caution. You've given them a hint and they haven't taken it.

 

[RustyRef]

Use a phrase like "I've explained the decision, but I'm not having a debate with you about it". If they don't take the hint and carry on arguing you can then resort to a caution, perhaps after warning them that it will be coming if he persists.

 

[RefereeX]

So here's one I had to deal with in an observation recently where an Assistant manager entered the pitch after the final whistle and argued a decision.
I have previously been advised that, technically, issuing a dissent caution to a manager who comes on the pitch arguing with you at full time is wrong in law, because he has 'entered the field of play to confront a match official (including at HT and FT)' which is a send off offence.
As much as I felt like a caution was enough for his actions, I didn't want to issue a caution on that occasion in case the observer said it was wrong in law.

But then is it in the wording?

If I think he has solely entered the pitch to confront me, it's a RC offence? But if he has entered the pitch for FT to shake players hands etc and then issued dissent while on the FOP is a caution acceptable?

 

[Martiju]

If I think he has solely entered the pitch to confront me, it's a RC offence? But if he has entered the pitch for FT to shake players hands etc and then issued dissent while on the FOP is a caution acceptable?

I'm not an observer (though I do mentor) so can't really answer from that point of view. I would absolutely defend a caution here, he hasn't entered with the sole intent of confrontation, which is how I understand the law. However, he has then committed dissent, which is cautionable.

 

[BenS]

Thanks very much for the responses, everyone. I guess I've taken some learning from this which is a bonus!

I think I got myself caught up in thinking that cautions/red cards are to be issued for the obvious comments we unfortunately sometimes hear, but because he was being relatively polite, just incredibly persistent threw me a bit. I think there's something I need to look at myself for in future, my nature is to try and be open/approachable etc. (whether refereeing/coaching/at work!) but I guess I need to draw my line a bit quicker to say what's acceptable and what isn't.

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[JamesL]

So here's one I had to deal with in an observation recently where an Assistant manager entered the pitch after the final whistle and argued a decision.
I have previously been advised that, technically, issuing a dissent caution to a manager who comes on the pitch arguing with you at full time is wrong in law, because he has 'entered the field of play to confront a match official (including at HT and FT)' which is a send off offence.
As much as I felt like a caution was enough for his actions, I didn't want to issue a caution on that occasion in case the observer said it was wrong in law.

But then is it in the wording?

If I think he has solely entered the pitch to confront me, it's a RC offence? But if he has entered the pitch for FT to shake players hands etc and then issued dissent while on the FOP is a caution acceptable?

I think the wording is loose here. It says to, not and, which leaves it open to your interpretation.

That's said I think the intention of the law is to prevent these situations, irrespective of how they come about.

The best way out of this is to remind them they are potentially committing a red card offence AND politely remind them that in 20/30 minutes time (insert relevant comp rules here) they are allowed to come and seek clarification and urge them to move away for the time being and approach the situation again after a period of calm.

 

[Kes]

So here's one I had to deal with in an observation recently where an Assistant manager entered the pitch after the final whistle and argued a decision.
I have previously been advised that, technically, issuing a dissent caution to a manager who comes on the pitch arguing with you at full time is wrong in law, because he has 'entered the field of play to confront a match official (including at HT and FT)' which is a send off offence.
As much as I felt like a caution was enough for his actions, I didn't want to issue a caution on that occasion in case the observer said it was wrong in law.

But then is it in the wording?

If I think he has solely entered the pitch to confront me, it's a RC offence? But if he has entered the pitch for FT to shake players hands etc and then issued dissent while on the FOP is a caution acceptable?

Always issue the caution. It's your decision not the observers. Also easier to explain your reasons for it during the debrief rather than trying to explain why you didn't when the observer sees it and thinks you should have. If a referee tells me their reasons for doing so and it's compatible with law, then that's that.

 

[Kes]

At the end of the game, as we shook hands, he asked why I felt it was ok for someone to put their hand across someone's throat.

When somebody (even a player) asks me a dumb question like that I generally just stop it dead with something like "it's not" (and walk away).

Failing that, something like "I don't want to hear your opinion about me" (and walk away).

As @one says above, remember, 99.9% of the time, they're not interested in hearing what you've got to say. (Why would they? - they already know what your opinion/decision was ) They just want to tell you what they think. You'll never win.

The problem with the coach/player/referee relationship is that you're expected to be polite and not criticise them or what they do in any way but they're permitted to criticise you. It is what it is. Keep it short and walk away.

 

[Archer]

“You’re entitled to your opinion, however I’m not required to listen to it”

 

[Cowboy Ref]

I might've titled this dreadfully, but I can't think of how else to put it.

I reffed my 8th game yesterday, so still very new! It was an younger age group cup game, so they're not used to competitive football, but in our area they have 'festivals' for a month twice a season where the games become competitive to try and get them used to it. One team's coach was appealing for everything, every single time there was a tackle you'd hear "ref!" or "that's a foul, ref". I let it slide for the first quarter but then his players started to catch on and that's when I decided to have a quiet word at the end of the second quarter to point out I'm reffing the game as I see it, I don't need his suggestions but would appreciate his support in letting me do my job.

In fairness to him, he quietened down until the final quarter when his team were 4 goals behind and the shouting started again. With about a minute to go, 2 players were running away from me clearly leaning into each other to try and win the ball, there was no foul but one player was bigger than the other. The coach claimed the bigger player (not on his team) put his arm across the throat of his player. I explained I can't see through them and can't award anything that I don't see. At the end of the game, as we shook hands, he asked why I felt it was ok for someone to put their hand across someone's throat. I explained from my angle it was 2 players competing for the ball and there didn't appear to be any movement that'd suggest a "strike" across the throat. He kept asking me the same question over and over about why it wasn't a foul and how touching someone's throat would always be a foul. I tried to say "this conversation is going in circles and I don't feel you will accept my explanation. Good game, well done, thanks" etc. but he wouldn't stop talking and I genuinely didn't know how to end the conversation. In hindsight, maybe I should've been more "forceful" but I felt reverting to threatening or showing cards would've taken it to another level. He wasn't being aggressive or abusive, just so, so persistent.

I've found my way with communication is to be as open and approachable as I can and it's served me well for all the other games, but just never come across anyone like this and didn't know if anyone had any tips/advice.

Thank you!

Just he word with coach after its getting repetitive, if he doesn't catch it and keeps doing it, have another word but take your tone up a notch warning him of a yellow card if he has another outburst. I think the card should do it. Just don't let it slide. I think what coaches get wrong is that they think that its okay to tell the ref to do what they think, which is very disruptive with the game's nature. The coach is going to think its okay and become a disruption to the game. Do what is needed in your mind. Give the coaches a quick rule tip while you're at it.