A&H

Dwight Gayle...

CapnBloodbeard said:
I personally think that if a dive affects the outcome of a match, that team should be stripped of the points for that game
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A dive is just one form of cheating. Even if the same punishment was not extended to other forms of cheating, all teams in the PL would be languishing in the drop zone and we'd never have a CL winner!
It's not gonna happen, but we merely need pro refs to officiate in accordance with the LOTG
 
The Referee Store
Big Cat said:
A dive is just one form of cheating. Even if the same punishment was not extended to other forms of cheating, all teams in the PL would be languishing in the drop zone and we'd never have a CL winner!
It's not gonna happen, but we merely need pro refs to officiate in accordance with the LOTG
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Diving/simulation is a very difficult and sometimes emotive call. You as ref are in reality deeming the player to be a cheat, and, call that wrong, and you have really upset an innocent player....
Imagine you were playing and you were cautioned for simulation (assuming you are a decent bloke who would never do that kinda thing)
Its nearly a personal slander on your name.
Very big call to make.
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Diving/simulation is a very difficult and sometimes emotive call. You as ref are in reality deeming the player to be a cheat, and, call that wrong, and you have really upset an innocent player....
Imagine you were playing and you were cautioned for simulation (assuming you are a decent bloke who would never do that kinda thing)
Its nearly a personal slander on your name.
Very big call to make.
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Agreed
In parks football, we need to be virtually certain of simulation. I've only cautioned for it once when at offensive player hit the deck in the PA and its always accompanied by a look of anguish from defenders when the whistle sounds
There are some home grown players who are honest, but most of the imports are cheats. That's not racist, but it is a generalisation based on nationality! It wouldn't be much of an insult to their egos
 
You simply can’t deduct points/goals for diving. As somebody said above, where do you draw the line? Managers will demand it for wrong offside calls, handballs on the line etc. It would be a nightmare.

Theoretically VAR will stamp this out anyway ....
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Diving/simulation is a very difficult and sometimes emotive call. You as ref are in reality deeming the player to be a cheat, and, call that wrong, and you have really upset an innocent player....
Imagine you were playing and you were cautioned for simulation (assuming you are a decent bloke who would never do that kinda thing)
Its nearly a personal slander on your name.
Very big call to make.
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This is the biggest problem for referees - player goes flying in the penalty area and you know that it is trip or a dive but you are not sure.

In many ways it is easier to give the penalty because then a least, if it's a dive, you are partly the victim of the deception and a lot of the anger of the team that has been wronged is directed at the diver whereas if you penalise a dive that was actually a foul you are the villain on your own - the attacking team are enraged and the defending team know that they have got away with one.
 
Yes to lots of the above posts, and its why we all breathe a sigh of relief when what we think might be a dive, ends up with ball rolling out for a goal kick
We then can say its not a pk, not a dive, no cards needed, and we might get one shout about the goal kick
The call is as good as taken out of our hands.
 
McTavish said:
This is the biggest problem for referees - player goes flying in the penalty area and you know that it is trip or a dive but you are not sure.

In many ways it is easier to give the penalty because then a least, if it's a dive, you are partly the victim of the deception and a lot of the anger of the team that has been wronged is directed at the diver whereas if you penalise a dive that was actually a foul you are the villain on your own - the attacking team are enraged and the defending team know that they have got away with one.
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Sounds complicated
If you see a DFK offence -> Give a Pen (and assess for SPA/DOGSO)
If you're virtually certain you've see simulation -> IFK and caution
If you're not sure of either -> Play on
 
On topic
I ran the line for a L5 a few weeks ago. Team losing 2-3 last minute. Losing team have a fairly claim for a penalty in the last minute. Ref waves it away
(I'd have probably done the same thing). Ball goes out of play - ref cautions OP for simulation (mistake to wait for ball to go out of play imo... but anyway). Game ends
Representative of defeated team enters our dressing room afterwards and ends up getting into trouble for misconduct
I thought it likely that the caution for simulation and the misconduct were connected. The caution was unnecessary as it was a decent shout for the pen and the YC was therefore inflammatory
 
QuaverRef said:
You simply can’t deduct points/goals for diving. As somebody said above, where do you draw the line? Managers will demand it for wrong offside calls, handballs on the line etc. It would be a nightmare.

Theoretically VAR will stamp this out anyway ....
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It doesn't
But in response to your first query - draw the line at simulation. If you set the standard that the team cannot benefit from diving then diving is no longer profitable.

It's probably more of a moral argument I'm making than a practical one. In the real world you'd imagine that the bigger clubs would never cop that punishment but the smaller ones would.
In the same sense that diving deserves red card, IMO, but there's always the potential for the ref to get it wrong so while I think morally it deserves a red, pragmatically it should never be an option - but a suspension can occur anyway with the benefit of video

Big Cat said:
On topic
I ran the line for a L5 a few weeks ago. Team losing 2-3 last minute. Losing team have a fairly claim for a penalty in the last minute. Ref waves it away
(I'd have probably done the same thing). Ball goes out of play - ref cautions OP for simulation (mistake to wait for ball to go out of play imo... but anyway). Game ends
Representative of defeated team enters our dressing room afterwards and ends up getting into trouble for misconduct
I thought it likely that the caution for simulation and the misconduct were connected. The caution was unnecessary as it was a decent shout for the pen and the YC was therefore inflammatory
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I'm not following the logic here. A convincing dive will, of course, lead to a decent penalty shout.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
It doesn't
But in response to your first query - draw the line at simulation. If you set the standard that the team cannot benefit from diving then diving is no longer profitable.

It's probably more of a moral argument I'm making than a practical one. In the real world you'd imagine that the bigger clubs would never cop that punishment but the smaller ones would.
In the same sense that diving deserves red card, IMO, but there's always the potential for the ref to get it wrong so while I think morally it deserves a red, pragmatically it should never be an option - but a suspension can occur anyway with the benefit of video


I'm not following the logic here. A convincing dive will, of course, lead to a decent penalty shout.
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The incident did not meet the criteria;
Big Cat said:
If you're virtually certain you've see simulation -> IFK and caution
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The inconsistencies from the FA don’t help the situation either. Gayle has been given a 2 game ban for diving which is good news, however if you’re caught by the referee at the time you just get a booking. That doesn’t seem right to me.
 
QuaverRef said:
The inconsistencies from the FA don’t help the situation either. Gayle has been given a 2 game ban for diving which is good news, however if you’re caught by the referee at the time you just get a booking. That doesn’t seem right to me.
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The referee can't really be sure at the time though, there have been plenty of players cautioned this season and before for simulation where it was subsequently shown they were actually fouled. Not the end of the world with a caution, but if they were to be sent off it would clearly be incorrectly match changing.

I wonder whether points deductions would be a better option than a suspension? Forest have had a double whammy here, they've lost out on two points vital for their play off challenge due to a dive, and to make it worse Gayle will now miss West Brom's game against Villa, who are one of Forest's main play off rivals.
 
RustyRef said:
The referee can't really be sure at the time though, there have been plenty of players cautioned this season and before for simulation where it was subsequently shown they were actually fouled. Not the end of the world with a caution, but if they were to be sent off it would clearly be incorrectly match changing.

I wonder whether points deductions would be a better option than a suspension? Forest have had a double whammy here, they've lost out on two points vital for their play off challenge due to a dive, and to make it worse Gayle will now miss West Brom's game against Villa, who are one of Forest's main play off rivals.
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I agree about the risk of sending off a player after a mistake, but I feel there should still be retrospective action after the booking. So if a player is booked at the time and the referee was correct, the FA should still implement the 2 game ban
 
Ciley Myrus said:
Diving/simulation is a very difficult and sometimes emotive call. You as ref are in reality deeming the player to be a cheat, and, call that wrong, and you have really upset an innocent player....
Imagine you were playing and you were cautioned for simulation (assuming you are a decent bloke who would never do that kinda thing)
Its nearly a personal slander on your name.
Very big call to make.
Click to expand...
Very good point.

I think it’s also almost impossible for a single ref because of our positioning. To see a dive the best angles nearly always seem to be directly behind/in front of the attacker. The Viera classic was motion straight up the field. Cameras behind the goals showed it clearly but from any angle it’s not clear. If def is chasing attacker into the box at 45 degrees, the ref’s side on angle has basically no chance to differentiate an ankle tap from a dive from a self-ankle tap.

Generalizing massively here but you get my point...
 
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