The Ref Stop

Do 2 YC make a Red?

S

SMYeaSM

New Member
Level 7 Referee
Context

I am a Level 7 this was an open age Sunday morning game grassroots. Think pub vs pub, although it won't affect me now, I am going for 7-6 promotion this season and lucky enough to get an observer for my 1st game and have been dwelling on this feedback since Sunday.

Situation.

Player 1 - niggly foul after 10th minute, nothing major, 16th minute, another niggly foul, which I had a quite word with him just to try and tighten up his game etc, about 3 minutes later from a throw an obvious 2 handed shove in the back from a throw in no attempt to play the ball, I called him and the captain over and explained 3 fouls occurred in and around 10 minutes and any more it could escalate (standard step process). After 25 mins, Player 1 slid in and tripped an opposition player without any attempt to ball and was a clear reckless foul.

My Solution

YC for the reckless challenge
YC for the "Step-up process" as promised for persistent infringement
RC for the 2 YC

Further Outcome
A further RC each for the both the captain and head coach for OFFINABUS

Observer feedback
He advised that in that situation, although the player had committed 4 fouls in 15 minutes, I should have played to the expectation of the players and the league and just issued the 1 caution regardless what that was for to save on the aggro that followed and the abuse of the Captain and coach. In Law am is my Solution correct? and what would you suggest in future?
 
The Ref Stop
Unfortunately you're incorrect in law. I'd advice you to study the laws of the game, and go and watch some football.

Think about whether you've ever seen two yellows given for one tackle.

Disciplinary action
• punishes the more serious offence, in terms of sanction, restart, physical
severity and tactical impact, when more than one offence occurs at the same time
 
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Same action causes two punishable offences. You can only punish one of the offences (more serious one as said above).

For example a reckless challenge outside the PA that denies an OGSO only gets a red, not yellow and red.

Has nothing to do with expectations. It's the laws.

Edit: as a general advice, or at least what I would do, for persistent offences, especially in the OP context that you had already warned him on the second offence, I'd go straight to caution on the third offence which is 3 mintes after the warning. It's an easy sell. You can skip some steps in stepped approach depending on context.
 
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As others noted, it’s a mistake. Learn from it and move on. Wisdom comes from learning g from our mistakes. It’s even better to learn from the mistakes of other—hang around here, and you’ll learn a lot so you don’t have to make as many of your own mistakes to learn from! (And everyone on here could talk about mistakes they’ve made and learned from that didn’t stop them from growing as a referee.)
 
bester said:
Unfortunately you're incorrect in law. I'd advice you to study the laws of the game, and go and watch some football.

Think about whether you've ever seen two yellows given for one tackle.

Disciplinary action
• punishes the more serious offence, in terms of sanction, restart, physical
severity and tactical impact, when more than one offence occurs at the same time
Click to expand...
Thank you, in that instance then if the 1st YC is issued for a reckless challenge, then he went on to commit another offence would you start the "step-up" process again or maybe drop back to bringing the captain in.
 
I would suggest that although you have cautioned for the reckless challenge , the persistent offending has also been dealt with in a manner of speaking without actually wiping the slate clean. Use the stepped approach again but don’t necessarily go all the way back to step 1. Manage the player proactively, don’t box yourself in a corner by stating the next one will be another caution etc, but when you feel it is justified then issue the 2nd yellow.
 
bester said:
Unfortunately you're incorrect in law. I'd advice you to study the laws of the game, and go and watch some football.

Think about whether you've ever seen two yellows given for one tackle.

Disciplinary action
• punishes the more serious offence, in terms of sanction, restart, physical
severity and tactical impact, when more than one offence occurs at the same time
Click to expand...
I was lucky in a way with that one although there was my mistake, it was a very verbal OFFINBUS from the player when I blew the whistle and started bringing out my notepad, 1st open age nerves got to me I guess and decided to go yellow, yellow, red. Possibly should have just gone red for the OFFINBUS
 
Ime, you will generally find even on a Sunday morning league OA game that if you use the stepped approach effectively as you did, and on the caution you tell the player that another foul is potentially a second yellow (careless can likely be managed with a final warning), if you also mention it to the captain, that they won't cause you any issues for the rest of your game.

It's all about communication and being clear without backing yourself into a corner. Manage what you can as necessary, but if a player isn't getting the message, make sure there's no surprises.

Well done for coming on and asking about the situation, we've all made mistakes and we all learn from them. Keep up to date with laws, speak to other referees and keep smiling and enjoying it!
 
SMYeaSM said:
I was lucky in a way with that one although there was my mistake, it was a very verbal OFFINBUS from the player when I blew the whistle and started bringing out my notepad, 1st open age nerves got to me I guess and decided to go yellow, yellow, red. Possibly should have just gone red for the OFFINBUS
Click to expand...
If you didn't feel it quite reached the level of OFFINABUS, but was a problem, it could also be dissent. A possible course of events was yellow for reckless foul followed by yellow for dissent result in red for 2CT. Since the verbal offense was separate from the foul, separate cards for each would be appropriate. (And if you did send him off for OFFINABUS, you would still show the yellow first for the reckless foul and then show the red for OFFINABUS--and report both of them.)
 
SMYeaSM said:
Thank you, in that instance then if the 1st YC is issued for a reckless challenge, then he went on to commit another offence would you start the "step-up" process again or maybe drop back to bringing the captain in.
Click to expand...
Conventional wisdom is if you warn someone for PI and they keep fouling and you caution for it then effectively the previous warning is reset. A bit different here as the caution was for a reckless challenge, but I still think most referees would then give him some more leeway on the PI element.

But, as others have said, you can't caution him for both a reckless challenge and PI at the same time, you would issue the caution for a reckless challenge and advise him to be careful from now on.
 
So, just from my perspective with this and the use of stepped approach. Was there not an option for a public rebuke? I.e a loud word with the player, helps you make a point to that player and others about the frequency of fouls. For me this often has a good effect, I dont know what your conversation with the captain was like as we all know some captains are more of a hinderence than a help, so a public rebuke can help establish some match control. You can choose to use some or none of the stepped approach of course, from my personal perspective I like to use a public talk prior to involving the captain as a last resort.

I wouldn't dwell on it though, I have made my fair share of posts here which is exactly what this forum is for - supporting and getting advice from other referees. We are all different and officiate differently, have different opinions about what is and isn't a foul and what dissent is especially. As others have said 7-6 is all about foul recognition and the use of the Stepped Approach so I would really dust down the law, as you do more games for promotion perhaps your "bar" for fouls and what you consider dissent will change :)
 
Stepped approach can be overused or misused at times. You can put so many steps in and win the step challenge by the end of the game. Step 1, Give FK and nothing else. Step 2, give FK and a quite word on the run past him. Step 3, give FK and a loud short word like 'enough of that' on the run from a distance. Step 4, FK and pause the game for a public one on one animated talking to. Step 5, get the captain involved. Step 6, caution. I know that the formal stepped approach may not mention some of these but either way the concept is the same. Stepped approach is for your game/player management. If not used correctly it can work negatively. Context is key.

For example say a mild mannered game throughout (and lets ignore other factors for this). Player first CL foul 10th minute just gets a FK. Second foul is CL one minute later and it gets loud 'enough of that' on the run. If it was boderline RL, pause the game and good talking to. If second foul was 30 min later and just CL we stay at just a FK. You get the point. Second Step can be anywhere based on context.
 
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