Defender down next to the post and...

[santa sangria]

So, I am AR... and we are being assessed, by our de facto regional chief... and my man in the middle is not at his sharpest...

After a corner, a defender stays down injured a yard from my far post, with his legs on the field. Play has shot up the far end. I keep the line at the second defender, who is now the goalkeeper, as I have a prone player still on the pitch.
When the ball goes out on the far side I get my flag up and call to my referee. I want him to stop play to get the player attention and/or get the player off the field. He doesn't hear or see me
Then the ball is in play for perhaps 2 minutes. Right at the end of this time the defender gets his legs off the pitch. I still hold the line with the GK as second defender. Then the ball goes out again and I flag and shout again. After calling my referee about 10 times he at last gets it, comes over and I ask him to get the player removed/attention. Of course, bizarrely, now that my ref has finally noticed, the player is now half a yard off the pitch.

So, what would you have done?

My assessor had not seen that the player's legs were on the field for so long. He told me that an injured player can leave the field anywhere. I highlighted that I had been trying to communicate with the referee while the player was still on the pitch - and that during the seconds at the end of the passage of play when he was completely off the pitch, he was very close to the pitch, and very near the goal. He also said I could have done more to tell the goalkeeper to get the player off the pitch.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Sigh, yet another assessor who doesn't know what he's doing.

You don't have the right to tell the keeper to drag a player off the pitch. If he's on the pitch and down injured, then it's your job to try to get the referee's attention - and I fully support shouting, if needed (and the other AR, if there was one, failed in his duty by not mirroring you).

It gets tricky around offside when the player has dragged himself off the field, and the laws are a bit ambiguous here. It's unfair to the attacker team to categorically state that once he's off, the offside line changes. Similarly, it makes no sense to keep insisting the GK is the 2nd last line of defence, especially if play continues for several minutes. I think you need to judge the impact to the opposing team here, and consider the phase of play. The old Q&A would state that an attacker who has gone past the goal line is effectively on the GL for offside purposes, so I think it makes sense to extend this to defenders, but the question is whether that's indefinite.

I'd say that assuming there's no immediate impact upon play (eg play is up the other end), you're free to consider him outside the game and move up the field. I'd try to communicate to the keeper (or even the physio if he's running by you to attend to him) that he needs to stay off until he gets the referee's word. If there's an attacker around who's being affected by the decision it may even be worth shouting 'he's off, you're offside now'. But if there's a fairly immediate play happening, I'd still put the keeper as the 2nd last line of defence for the time being. But, I believe all that's a bit ambiguous in the laws.

 

[santa sangria]

Good reply, thanks.
Well, for maybe 90 seconds the player was still legs on pitch and no other outfield player was in the half. The goalkeeper can see me holding the line with him and is perhaps the only player to see and understand my signals to get the referees attention. It is a massive advantage to the defending team if I then start to tell the goalkeeper how to fix the problem that his team has. In the context of the game there is every chance of a breakaway counter. That he didn't scream at his players to kick the ball out is beyond me. In the 20-30 seconds that the player is then off the pitch before play stops and I eventually get the referees attention I don't think I can call that the player is off - particularly because he might slither on again!

My question is really this: surely the idea of the law here is that players cannot leave the FOP without the referee's permission. Otherwise at every corner or goalmouth incident John Terry would dive behind the goal line and could claim to be off the pitch, and affect offside decisions and the runs and positioning of attacking players, no?

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Well that's why you need to use common sense, and the other example of the attacker, to decide whether you'll still consider them to be on the pitch for the purpose of offside or not. I believe the LOTG allows you to make the decision on whether they'll be included.

As for 'leaving without the ref's permission' - somebody who's injured near the sideline and drags themself off is trying to do the best thing by the game in ensuring he's out of the way and the game doesn't need to stop for his injury to be attended. Do you really want to be cautioning for that?

Sometimes we talk about 'implied perimssion' - which is basically that in certain circumstances players cat stretch this law. For instance, a player doesn't need your explicit permission to fetch a ball for a TI. I know this is quite diffierent, but in some cases, especially when it's a medical situation or the player is otherwise trying to do the best thing by the game we can relax it and take it into consideration. If, however, he then comes back onto the field then we could have a problem.

 

[SM]

For me he is fine to crawl off for treatment, no need for a caution. However, he is considered on his own goal line for the purposes of offside as stated. He would probably be better staying where he is and his team mates shouting for the ball to be put out to their attacking team mates (as it sounds as if they have the ball?)

Shouting to the goal keeper is pointless in this instance and not your job. Hold Position on the second last defender. You don't sound like you could have done more than you did.

for me, the real problem is that The defenders team mates have the ball, they should put it out. If they continue attacking and lose possession they cannot complain when their opponents counter attack. I have never know a goal keeper who cannot shout loud enough that enough the furthest upfield attacking cannot hear his grumbling clearly.

 

[lincs22]

My question is really this: surely the idea of the law here is that players cannot leave the FOP without the referee's permission. Otherwise at every corner or goalmouth incident John Terry would dive behind the goal line and could claim to be off the pitch, and affect offside decisions and the runs and positioning of attacking players, no?

For me he is fine to crawl off for treatment, no need for a caution. However, he is considered on his own goal line for the purposes of offside as stated. He would probably be better staying where he is and his team mates shouting for the ball to be put out to their attacking team mates (as it sounds as if they have the ball?)

As regards the caution, an injury player should not be cautioned if he crawls or hops off the FOP quickly or when play goes to the other end. If the opposition are attacking and he gets off for a "tactical advantage" ie an offside then occurs, then I would be in favour the caution. Circumstances apply...

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

For me he is fine to crawl off for treatment, no need for a caution. However, he is considered on his own goal line for the purposes of offside as stated. He would probably be better staying where he is and his team mates shouting for the ball to be put out to their attacking team mates (as it sounds as if they have the ball?)

Shouting to the goal keeper is pointless in this instance and not your job. Hold Position on the second last defender. You don't sound like you could have done more than you did.

for me, the real problem is that The defenders team mates have the ball, they should put it out. If they continue attacking and lose possession they cannot complain when their opponents counter attack. I have never know a goal keeper who cannot shout loud enough that enough the furthest upfield attacking cannot hear his grumbling clearly.

SM - would you consider him on the goal line indefinitely (ie until the next stoppage)?

The only reason I was suggesting communicating to the players was to prevent arguments in an unusual situation. Though having said that when I've been in this situation, I haven't communicated to the players - and I've adopted the approach of not including him for offside when the phase of play has changed, although there hasn't been the slightest concern with the attackers in my cases either, so I've been fortunate.

 

[SM]

This situation has occurred twice in my last 2 AR gigs down "my end" so to speak. Both times the defender who goes down's team has carried on play upfield. Both times the assessor has agreed that the defender down remains active even off the FOP and has to be considered when factoring who is the second last defender. Rightly or wrongly that is the message that came through. It helped that the ball did not come back up to where the defender was down

That said, I see your point and I don't disagree with what your saying.

 

[santa sangria]

Thanks. I certainly would not have asked for or expected a caution in this case. I think the player was genuinely distressed and only eventually moved off the field by a small amount as he thought he was helping.
I just read my report from the assessor and he suggests, as he said at the time, that I could have spoken to the players. I don't agree with him It was a much bigger problem that my ref was not switched on enough to see or hear my signals.
Unfortunately I got an 8.1 (same as the ref). And this was due to us signalling opposite directions for two throws at half way. Both of which were the same. It is his zone, he is closer, I wait for him to signal, I am clearly showing which way I want to flag, he doesn't signal, and so I flag, and he goes the other way at the same time. I

I feel a bit robbed overall as I feel all three incidents (the injured player and two poor throw signals) were down to my ref not being his usual self. I know for future assessments to play it much much safer with the signalling!!!

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

8.1 is a very good assessment mark...at least it is down here! More than required for potential promotion. As for the flagging, sounds you both thought 'he's not going to signal, so I better' at the same time. This one comes back to the referee though - if the AR is showing which way he's going to flag, then the referee better make a very quick signal or else go with the AR. If he doesn't, then exactly what happened in your game is the outcome. While I suggested speaking to the players as a possibility, I wouldn't have criticised you as an assessor

Sounds like you did the right thing with the flagging though.

@SM - I don't disagree with your comments either. I feel like we should hug it out now....

 

[santa sangria]

Thanks for the positivity. 8.1 is "satisfactory, important areas for development" here. Fingers crossed it is enough for promotion. I worked hard every game and improved across the board. The assessor doesn't state what that area for development is specifically. In my mind I need more experience of unusual match situations. What I take away from this is perhaps my expectations of my ref were wrong. I really rate him, and actually learnt lots from playing when he has been officiating. But I think I let that cloud our communication. Perhaps I was over confident that our communication would be easier than it was. Bonus - this was Thursday, I am waiting for Friday's assessment as well

 

[SM]

That is poor poor show from the assessor to not highlight the development point his mark indicates?

 

[Russell Jones]

Sounds like you were pretty unlucky in that assessment. Hopefully the luck will even out over the season.

With regard to 'is the defender still active'?, personally I'd say he's active up until the point he's getting treatment .. any time before that, even after crawling off, he could see a promising attack developing and decide to jump back onto the FOP to prevent it.

 

[santa sangria]

Yes, that was my logic (perhaps buried in my waffle!)

 

[SM]

I don't know about coming back on if there is a promising attack - that would be rentering the fop without permission.

Lol this one is a bit of a minefield of contradictions.

He can leave for treatment - but he is still considered an active player for the purposes of offside - however, he cannot come back on without permission off the ref and certainly cannot reenter the fop from the goal line anyway if the ball is in play.