The Ref Stop

Dartford v Maidstone, offside or not? Ref reverses assistant's flag.

And if he didn't duck the ball hits him. His actions have had a direct impact on what happens to the ball.....
Can understand your POV but as Capn points out, it's not correct in law. We've all seen plenty of recent examples where a player lifts a foot to let the ball go underneath (thus 'impacting' the trajectory of the ball) and are correctly considered to not interfere with play. Otherwise you'd penalise the striker for ducking even with no GK close by, which would clearly be nonsense!

No way that the AR could 'wait and see' on the flag as he had no chance of telling whether the striker was interfering .. so he had to flag and therefore the phrase 'overrule' by the ref is inaccurate. The ref didn't disagree with the AR call that the striker was in an offside position, just clarified that in his opinion he didn't interfere. Given that some on here agree with that opinion and some disagree, he'd have been damned either way he chose :)
 
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Yeah he was too quick. Hasn't taken the time given to him to think and process the information. We have more time than we think to make a decision. :)
 
I disagree. I don't think being quick has anything to do with it - it's a question of how do you signal when you're not sure if there's been involvement or not (same sort of thing can happen when you're not sure who got a touch in a crowded PA). Personally, I think the 'talk' signal is a better option than flag up.
 
Personally, I think the 'talk' signal is a better option than flag up.
Not raising the flag, and indicating you want to talk to the ref, could land you in even more bother could it not? Goal scored, AR indicating he wants to talk, you trot over and decide the player was offside. No goal. All the polite players, coaches, managers and spectators in the world are going to be screaming at you that there was no flag. Surely, when you flag for offside, the flag goes straight up and stays there until the whistle is blown, at which point you indicate near, middle or far. In these scenarios, assuming the ref has seen your flag, it should stay up past the offside incident and then post-goal, and you stay on the spot rather than moving back to position after the goal (indicating you have an issue). Then the ref comes over and discusses and you can sort it out. No surprises.
 
xpositor - all fair points, but if the AR is using the talk signal, then everybody is still going to see that the AR saw something, just not sure what. So I don't think complaints that 'the flag wasn't up' would be too heartfelt. Compared to sticking the flag up, referee running over, then goal awarded anyway, that just looks like the referee talked the AR out of the decision. So I think the 'talk' flag would be the lesser of two evils - but really, it's a lose-lose situation for the AR to be in.

The flag in the air is easier for the referee to spot, but given you guys don't usually whistle for a goal over there I don't think there would be a major problem caused by the referee taking a few seconds.
 
This was the correct course of action by the AR.

At this level, it is typical for the briefing to include this scenario: If the assistant feels that there is a player in an offside position who MIGHT have interfered (but he can't tell 100% because of the angle), then the instruction is to flag and call the referee over.

Between the two officials, they will have 100% of the information, and the referee can make the call either way.
 
I use a simple system.

ARs instructed that if they have a player in an offside position when a goal is scored and they are unsure if he has interfered with the keeper or not, keep the flag down and just root themselves to the corner flag (no run up the touchline as would be expected) and give me the come over hand gesture.

I will either know who they are referring to (if it is obvious) and give the goal if its clear to me the player was not interfereing and give the AR a thumbs up or if it is not clear who is being referred to or I think the player did interfere I will publicly tell the players to hold fire and that there was a player interfering with the goal keeper in whatever way and I need to check if he was in an offside position or not before I give the goal.

Works fine.
 
So, under the interpretations last year, last season, etc...

This is clearly not an offside offence. Much like the Preston North End v Manchester United FA Cup game last year where a shot comes in and Wayne Rooney jumps out of the way, under the old interpretation? We're all good to go.

In this case, the shot comes in, the player in offside position (to the GK's right, our left) ducks to let the ball pass over him (couldn't tell what his number was, my apologies). Old interpretation? No biggie, nice goal guys, smart play by the PIOP.

New interpretation? I'll quote PGMOL directly here (just change "Red10" for "WhiteNr"):

This situation demonstrates the difficultly that the assistant referee and referee may well face when making a ‘real time’ judgement as to whether or not an attacking player in an offside position has had an ‘impact’ on the ability of an opponent to play the ball.

On balance, in this situation, the obvious action of Red10 is considered to have impacted on the goalkeeper’s ability to play the ball.

In practice, the refereeing team need to determine whether an obvious action has a clear impact on an opponent’s ability to play the ball. It is only when both elements are satisfied that an offside offence should be penalised.

They follow that up with:
The closer that the attacking player in an offside position making an obvious action is to an opponent, the greater the likelihood of him clearly impacting the ability of an opponent to play the ball.

So, under those directions, WhiteNr has a CLEAR OBVIOUS ACTION (ducks away from the path of the ball to avoid contact with the ball). His actions CLEARLY IMPACT on an opponent (goalkeeper delays his action to wait and see if the attacking playing in an offside position touches/plays the ball).

Expected outcome: Offside Offence

Those FA/PGMOL resources are here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2uvfiv7i4c96faz/AAAlHWMRFcuP29Lq2aj3-EgGa?dl=0

For a video of the Preston North End v Manchester United incident, see here:
 
LOTG

“interfering with an opponent” means preventing an opponent from playing or being able to play the ball by clearly obstructing the opponent’s line of vision or challenging an opponent for the ball"

To me,the answer to "is the attacker preventing the keeper from being able to play the ball??" As I see it, no, as others see it yes. So I have no problem with the referees call as it's his view, right or wrong.
With regard to the AR flagging...this has always been a bone of contention for me, as the AR cannot possibly have a view as to whether the player in the offside position interfered, and the referee often (though not in this case) cannot call the offside as he is not in line with the last defender. So what are they supposed to do??
This is a disconnect for me that no-one has ever adequately explained.
 
I think it should have been disallowed. I think the player in the offside position clearly prevented the goalkeeper from making a proper attempt to dive for the ball. He makes a quarter dive at best. He immediately appeals.

Easily said sitting here though. Wouldn't be surprised if the actual ref thought the same thing upon watching it.
 
I think you're misinterpreting what they're saying Alex. They're talking about proximity of the PIOP to the opponent, not the ball. The simple fact that the ball travels near the PIOP does not make it an offence. Yes, it's unfair because the keeper IS affected by the presence, but under the LOTG that's not enough. Kind of like when a sweeper is drawn out of position to mark a PIOP. It has a big impact upon play, but any impact the PIOP has upon the decision making of the defender is, like it or not, irrelevant.

I think the passage you quoted would be talking more about, say, a PIOP taking an action, such as approaching a defender who's about to play the ball. The fact that he ducked means, in black and white, that he hasn't interfered with play.

As I said, all that matters is whether he interfered with an opponent - and simply being there, or moving out of the way of the ball, hasn't been sufficient for that for quite some years. If the keeper seemed unable to make the dive properly without colliding with him, that's the only potential justification for disallowing the goal.

With regard to the AR flagging...this has always been a bone of contention for me, as the AR cannot possibly have a view as to whether the player in the offside position interfered, and the referee often (though not in this case) cannot call the offside as he is not in line with the last defender. So what are they supposed to do??
This is a disconnect for me that no-one has ever adequately explained.

SM has explained his approach - the AR is to keep the flag down and stay rooted to the spot, that's a signal to SM that something is wrong.
But this is a good point. There are a number of other scenarios where something similar occurs - say, the ball travels through a crowded penalty area. There's an PIOP but you're not sure if he got a touch on the ball - what do you do?
I think it's worth discussing these mechanics. Is there a typical convention on your side of the pond, or will it be up to each referee?
 
I have to confess to being disturbed that we cannot find a consensus here. Rather than being a reflection of our lack of knowledge, I have to conclude that the ambiguity lies within Law 11, or rather in the tweaks introduced at the start of the season. Dartford gained a point because of this goal, Maidstone lost two points and the chance of moving closer to the top of Conference South. These decisions - or non-decisions - have a crucial effect on games' outcomes. Are there any assessors/senior refs who might be able to cast some light on a subject that appears to be confusing a lot of us, including myself. I don't like the feeling of knowing I'll go out on Saturday afternoon unclear about part of the Laws.
 
I think you're misinterpreting what they're saying Alex. They're talking about proximity of the PIOP to the opponent, not the ball. The simple fact that the ball travels near the PIOP does not make it an offence. Yes, it's unfair because the keeper IS affected by the presence, but under the LOTG that's not enough. Kind of like when a sweeper is drawn out of position to mark a PIOP. It has a big impact upon play, but any impact the PIOP has upon the decision making of the defender is, like it or not, irrelevant.

I think the passage you quoted would be talking more about, say, a PIOP taking an action, such as approaching a defender who's about to play the ball. The fact that he ducked means, in black and white, that he hasn't interfered with play.
The play there is almost identical to the other play I referenced.

The PIOP makes a movement to get out of the way of the ball as it comes directly at him. One ducks, the other jumps to the side.

In both cases, proximity to the passage of the ball is REQUIRED. Read the link above, see the play on the video.

As I said, all that matters is whether he interfered with an opponent - and simply being there, or moving out of the way of the ball, hasn't been sufficient for that for quite some years.
And that's what has changed with the new interpretation. That is now sufficient, especially according to what the FA and PGMOL have described as the way they want the English match officials to call the game.

The Australians may be doing things a bit differently (hell, I know we are in Canada), but that's what the English feel is correct (and I'm told that it matches up decently well with the general UEFA understanding).
 
(Just like the backpass law) this is a case where the law is not worded well enough to cover every eventuality.

So, we should be using our common sense here.

The PIOP is interfering. If he is not there the GK has a better chance to save it. Surely the spirit of the law is that this is an offence. We do not want players hanging around in offside positions in front of goal.

If we, the collective hive mind, think that this is a goal, then next week genius manager Bob will line up two spare attackers inside the six box in front of the posts for the whole 94 minutes because it is such a massive disadvantage to the goalkeeper.
 
Santa - in what way is he interfering?
Whether we want players hanging around offside positions in front of goal is irrelevant - they're allowed to.

I have to confess to being disturbed that we cannot find a consensus here. Rather than being a reflection of our lack of knowledge, I have to conclude that the ambiguity lies within Law 11, or rather in the tweaks introduced at the start of the season. Dartford gained a point because of this goal, Maidstone lost two points and the chance of moving closer to the top of Conference South. These decisions - or non-decisions - have a crucial effect on games' outcomes. Are there any assessors/senior refs who might be able to cast some light on a subject that appears to be confusing a lot of us, including myself. I don't like the feeling of knowing I'll go out on Saturday afternoon unclear about part of the Laws.

To be fair, in another thread we couldn't even reach a consensus about whether we should be awarding a goal kick/whatever when the ball was clearly out of play.....

But yes, Law 11 is a joke - and this isn't even the worst part of it. It's the 'has the defender played the ball' that's become really messy.
 
Santa - in what way is he interfering?
Whether we want players hanging around offside positions in front of goal is irrelevant - they're allowed to.

Again, Captain, if you award this is a goal, and if it was clarified as such in the laws, then next week coaches will line up two spare attackers inside the six yard box in front of the posts for the whole 94 minutes because it is such a massive disadvantage to the goalkeeper.
That is not the intention of the badly worded law.

And please look again - the goalkeeper does not stretch out his hands because of the position of the player. You can tell me that doesn't matter because of the wording of the law. I am telling you that IMHO that is not the intent of the wording of the law.
 
I think ...judging by the replies, that we have again touched on a very grey area in the LAWS.

Having re watched the clip I still have to stay in the Offside camp as IMO the striker being so close to the keeper has impeded him .
Maybe not his movement but he has impeded his judgement .
 
@Beezer A better choice of word would be "impacts" rather than "impedes". The new IFAB interpretation mentions impact.

This play? There's an obvious impact to anyone watching it.
 
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