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Damned if you do....

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SM

SM

The avuncular one
game tonight. A corner, falls to an attacker whos cross/shot flies across the 6 yard box and is tapped in unnecessarily by a team mate.

The CAR sticks the flag up for offside (yes they do that here). From where I am it looks like the attacker runs on to it from an inside position,but in honesty my main focus is the cross/shooter who was lucky his shoddy control didn't lose him the ball and invite a slide challenge. There are players moving everywhere so it is one of those impossible to be certain moments. From a cross close to the edge of the six yard box, chances of actually being offside = slim especially as there were defenders on the goal line whe the corner was taken.

Overrule the CAR and goal awarded = Unhappy team who conceded a goal.

Made me think; I go with the CAR = unhappy team who had a goal disallowed.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Before anyone says "don't let CARs do anything" I have tried that and it makes games hell. The teams here are used to CARs being used to some degree and going against this completely just isn't worth it.

Thoughts?
 
The Referee Store
In regards to not letting CAR's do anything. If that's what your county does, that's what your county does!

Go with your CAR and simply say to any arguments that he was in the best position to make the judgement?
 
Was the CAR in a better position than you to judge the offside?

Have they been Ok so far?

Did you speak to the CAR to ask what they had seen?
 
With Padfoot on this. I think you need certainto to overrule the CAR...although how much certainty depends on their performance. Unlikely? Probably still a fair chance you got that wrong.

Where were you standing at the corner though? Consider adjusting your position at some restarts to ensure you can monitor offsides yourself. If may reduce your opportunity to spot a foul, but increases your offside capability. Trade-off - that's all positioning is anyway.
 
Yes agree with two previous posts, think you have to be sure to overrule, although can appreciate the counter argument which is you have to be sure to disallow, so summing up yes I agree......... You're damned etc etc.........;)
 
First time the CAR had anything to do with offside in fairness. His throw in flags were mostly in favour of his team (he was a sub) and he was overruled a few times. That said, CARs here seem to think that they should always give a direction for throws regardless of where the ball is and whether they have the best view of who touched the ball last. Uneducated masses eh?

More info; short corner to the left, goes a bit wrong but the ball lands with an attacker who runs further into the box about level-ish with 6 yard area still out left. Defenders were on the line at the time of the corner. I am just left of player and am about in line with edge of penalty area with an angle.

The CAR is not in line with second last defender and it would have been a very close call if he was offside given proximity to goal. Watching subsequent corners more closely the CAR remains in line with the 6 yard area for all corners.

Interesting that the consensus seems to be go with CAR. Either way, someone was going to be very unhappy with me.

@CapnBloodbeard - it's come about from a left sided corner. Being on the goal line would have been a bad position for what had the potential to be a short corner (due to player movement). Getting wider after the corner would have left me way out wide and unable to see what was going on in the box. As it was I had a shallow-ish angle from edge of penalty area and a view of the potential challenge and across the goal.
 
My main reason for going with CAR unless you're pretty sure he/she is wrong, is for consistency.

As you imply, for the majority of offside decisions its very difficult for referee to judge.

My standard response to the inevitable moans about CAR flags is that I am only going to overrule if its obvious (to me!).

If you stick with that approach, I think most will accept that you are doing your best and being as fair as possible within the constraints of working with "non neutral" assistants.
 
We don't have any "CFA policy" as far as CARs are concerned (not that I'm aware of anyway). How much "power" is given to the CAR prior to kick off is the ref's call on the day anyway - as it should be.
I let them indicate direction of throw-in only and "offside indication". I'm always careful to explain to both CARs and both team captains that the call is still mine, irrespective of whether their CAR flags for offside or not - and that they should play to my whistle and not his flag. That generally tends to sell it to them and your arse is then covered whatever you decide to do with each occurrence. :)

In your particular case @SM I'd have gone with my gut as well and overruled the CAR. In wide open spaces, looking accross the pitch as balls are played through etc. he is generally credible (so long as he's keeping up with play) but in a crowded penalty/goal area, flagging to dissallow a goal against his team, I'd say he isn't.
Like they say though, with any decision you make, it's going to piss at least 11 of them off......:D
 
For me, I have to be certain that the CAR is either wrong or cheating.....if I suspect the latter I will try and get into a position to judge the offsides for myself a couple of times, that normally stops any shenanigans.
As referees we don't make match changing decisions on guesses or gut instincts....we make them on factual events based on what we have seen.
Difficult in your scenario as whichever way you go with the benefit of the doubt, it's potentially match changing for one side or the other.
Personally I would be going with whichever way is going to cause less damage to my credibility and match control.

For throws, I always tell the CARs that if they aren't sure which way to give it, just put the flag straight up and I'll pick the direction.
 
having officiated games where CARs are used for offside in some capacity and also where they are not used at all, I have to say not at all is far better.

Teams adjust playing style and not rely on offside calls. Far less moaning about offside calls. Better game.

@Kes - that is my standard speech to CARs and teams. To the teams - The man with the flag is there for my benefit not yours, regardless of what he is doing if you don't hear a whistle don't stand there with your arm in the air - keep running.

To the CAR directly - if you're keeping up with play I am happy for you to raise the flag if you believe there is an offside. Bear in mind the decision as to where or not there is an offside remains fully with me. I'll either blow the whistle for the offence or give you an acknowledgment that I have seen you. Please don't be offended if I overrule you - chances are it will happen during the game and chances are you will know you're right and I'm wrong (usually gets a giggle). I appreciate your help today.
 
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SM said:
@CapnBloodbeard - it's come about from a left sided corner. Being on the goal line would have been a bad position for what had the potential to be a short corner (due to player movement). Getting wider after the corner would have left me way out wide and unable to see what was going on in the box. As it was I had a shallow-ish angle from edge of penalty area and a view of the potential challenge and across the goal.
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i disagree. Personally, when I have a club AR, I position myself at restarts like I have no AR at all. What's the most important decision you would have to make at a corner? close goal/no goal....tossup between penalty or offside after that, ball curving out then in at the kick following that.
Positioning is all about averages. Good position for one thing, sacrifices your capacity for another. The best positions are just the ones most likely to see the most likely type of incident at a given field location. With a neutral AR he's got offside, ball in / out of play so all you need to think about are penalties, and the break. Without a neutral AR, you suddenly have to deal with offside, goal/no goal and ball in/out of play on top of everything else.
A traditional corner position is usually the best position for penalties and the counterattack, but useless for ball in/out of play, fairly ordinary for offside, and some penalty appeals will still be blocked.
Standing off the goal line (always on the

SM said:
having officiated games where CARs are used for offside in some capacity and also where they are not used at all, I have to say not at all is far better.

Teams adjust playing style and not rely on offside calls. Far less moaning about offside calls. Better game.
.
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Where I first refereed, we didn't use CAR's at all - so you'd be in the middle by yourself. Personally I prefer that.
Although I don't find that teams moan about offside less - their behaviours doesn't change at all. Often leaves me thinking - if you're the sweeper, you know there's no AR and you're trying to play the offside trap.....how daft can you get? :p
 
The issue with overruling a CAR is that if the team that he was favouring feel you've allowed every decision the CAR gave against them and then overruled the one that he gave for them. Admittedly I have no experience with CAR's that do offsides, but I can imagine it can result in a bit of dissent.
 
the point of my post; this is one of them situations in a game where either way, you're p!ssing someone off! :D
 
CAR's given responsibility to indicate offside? What a recipe for disaster. Up in Scotland; matches with no NAR's, CAR's indicate ball in and out of play on the touchline only. Why give them offside when most of them do not know the various intricacies of the offside law. It's hard enough for top level AR's to get it right, never mind these guys. So to trust CAR's with offside indications sounds like madness.
 
the walloper said:
CAR's given responsibility to indicate offside? What a recipe for disaster. Up in Scotland; matches with no NAR's, CAR's indicate ball in and out of play on the touchline only. Why give them offside when most of them do not know the various intricacies of the offside law. It's hard enough for top level AR's to get it right, never mind these guys. So to trust CAR's with offside indications sounds like madness.
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Why give them offside? Because it's much easier to judge offside from level with the defensive line on the touchline than it is from the middle of the pitch where the ball could easily be played over your head and require a 180 degree turn to track. There's a reason AR's exist (and run those lines) in the first place after all.

There are of course pros and cons to both approaches - having only ever refereed in leagues where CAR's giving offside seems to be standard practice, my approach is to go with their flags unless I have a good reason to suspect otherwise. Where there's a scramble or a late flag after a goal, I'll go over and ask them to describe what they saw. If their description matches my understanding of offside, I'll give it - if not (or if they're not sure), I'll overrule. It's not a tricky system.
 
the walloper said:
CAR's given responsibility to indicate offside? What a recipe for disaster. Up in Scotland; matches with no NAR's, CAR's indicate ball in and out of play on the touchline only. Why give them offside when most of them do not know the various intricacies of the offside law. It's hard enough for top level AR's to get it right, never mind these guys. So to trust CAR's with offside indications sounds like madness.
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Mate, with respect, that's a daft thing to say.
If (for instance) the ball is down by the left touchline, you, as the referee are say, over on the left yourself, maybe 15 - 20 yards from the touchline and the ball is crossed and then instantly booted 60-70 yards upfield into the opposite half - you really think you can make a credible offside (or not) decision at that moment?
A CAR in that example is at least 30 yards more in line with play than you are. Irrespective of his personal allegiance, the fact that he might raise his flag to indicate the potential of offside (give or take 5 or even 10 yards if he's cheating) and alert you to the possibility of it before you decide to blow or not, HAS to be better than you trying to judge any possible appeal for it from where you're positioned at that moment?!!
Trust me, at grass roots level, it's far better/more accurate to have the CAR flagging and then make your decision based on a visual/mental snapshot at the time than simply rely on your (often) distant judgement or the appeal of the defence.
Some may argue that the CAR's flag is no different to the "he's off ref" appeal by his own team's defence but experience has shown me that it's far better to have one appealing, backed up by a CAR's flag than judge it all yourself from a position which is often not credible. :)
 
Kes said:
Mate, with respect, that's a daft thing to say.
If (for instance) the ball is down by the left touchline, you, as the referee are say, over on the left yourself, maybe 15 - 20 yards from the touchline and the ball is crossed and then instantly booted 60-70 yards upfield into the opposite half - you really think you can make a credible offside (or not) decision at that moment?
A CAR in that example is at least 30 yards more in line with play than you are. Irrespective of his personal allegiance, the fact that he might raise his flag to indicate the potential of offside (give or take 5 or even 10 yards if he's cheating) and alert you to the possibility of it before you decide to blow or not, HAS to be better than you trying to judge any possible appeal for it from where you're positioned at that moment?!!
Trust me, at grass roots level, it's far better/more accurate to have the CAR flagging and then make your decision based on a visual/mental snapshot at the time than simply rely on your (often) distant judgement or the appeal of the defence.
Some may argue that the CAR's flag is no different to the "he's off ref" appeal by his own team's defence but experience has shown me that it's far better to have one appealing, backed up by a CAR's flag than judge it all yourself from a position which is often not credible. :)
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As stated, these guys don't know the laws the way we do. So are they really qualified to make such calls? I don't know how they follow the game, but I can't imagine them; one, being fit enough, and two, being in line with the 2nd last defender at all times. Add this to the fact they will not know the full intricacies of law and you effectively have an incompetent, unfit and potentially biased assistant who would, in my opinion, create more harm than good (judging by some of the CAR's i've saw). God knows how you deal with match control should you wave down a CAR's flag; must be a nightmare. There would be barneys up here if a CAR gave a flag/no flag when he was clearly onside/offside; coaches would send over the subs to batter the opposing teams CAR ;). In all seriousness, I guess in Scotland we have took the burden on ourselves due to the reasons above. But we are coached to maintain our fitness and be in a position to judge offsides as best we can. Teams generally accept that this is the case and get on with it. You do get dissent at times, but I think this is a lot less than what it would be had there been a CAR flagging, or not flagging, and you going against his call.

Just my opinion of course :cool:
 
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Guys, I did not bring this up in the op as a means of having this tired old debate. Again.

I did bring it up to highlight that as a lone ref there are situations which, regardless of what you do, earn you bad feeling. In fairness the team I question did their moaning when it happened and then dropped it. :)

I get the feeling that if the goal had been the decider in the match, I would have been hearing about it again at the end of the match. Didn't happen though.
 
Our club linos are aloud ball in and out and offside but that's it as there's no way I'm going to give and offside myself unless it's at a penalty situation that's only time
 
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