The Ref Stop

Contact But Diving

micky2001

micky2001

Well-Known Member
Take this scenario, red player attacking and makes his way into oppositions penalty area when blue defender tackles, no doubt its a penalty. However, the red player makes an oscar winning dive, can you do anything about that, like, although there is contact, he is making so much of a meal out of it and clearly over exaggerating.

In the scenario I seen on Sportscene last night, Pat Nevin was saying he would give a red to the defender for DOGSO (correct call) but yellow the attacker for "simulation."
 
The Ref Stop
I don't really think that you can. The offence is more about trying to cheat the ref into giving a foul rather than hamming it up. I had one today where a player was clearly fouled but spent some time writhing around on the floor. I blew the whistle ran up and said, "No advantage, free kick to red. Okay player, you've got the foul, don't make a meal of it." She replied, "But she took my legs away." I said, "Yes, but she didn't take them off did she? Get up and get on with it."
 
Be safe and don't make a scene - if it's a foul it's a foul so give the penalty. If it's a dive it's a dive so book him. I wouldn't do both because then the defending team will argue that if it was a dive (which you are saying it was by booking him) how can it be a penalty?
 
A foul is a foul, whether the fall is theatrical or not.

As for Pet Nevin, you can't send off for DOGSO and then caution the attacker for simulation. That would indicate that there wasn't a foul, so how can it be DOGSO?
 
The law says something along the lines of 'feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled'. By definition, if there is a foul then they can't pretend to have been fouled.
 
Mick. said:
I don't really think that you can. The offence is more about trying to cheat the ref into giving a foul rather than hamming it up. I had one today where a player was clearly fouled but spent some time writhing around on the floor. I blew the whistle ran up and said, "No advantage, free kick to red. Okay player, you've got the foul, don't make a meal of it." She replied, "But she took my legs away." I said, "Yes, but she didn't take them off did she? Get up and get on with it."
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I would and have taken the stance mick has here, a quick comment to show that you have acknowledged that the fouled player has tendencies to exaggerate both empathises with the defender who has fouled and slightly embarrasses the fouled player which is a good thing
 
Oddly enough, there is a passage somewhere that says you can't caution for simulation if ANY contact has been made, even if you think he's made a dogs dinner of it, he has to go down untouched and clearly trying to con you before you can caution him

If you see it as a foul, give it, if you see it as a dive without any contact, caution him

Attackers are now deliberately 'dragging' a leg knowing it's going to be caught, it's down to us referees to protect innocent defenders by waving it away, but we can't caution him if there's contact. Daft but true
 
I disagree @Top man in the parish . Ashley Young dive v Crystal Palace. On the video below, you can see he kicks the defenders leg and gets cautioned for diving, so he has made contact, and been cautioned.

 
I'm too old to try and remember when what we're to do, and what happens at the 'top' of the game were not two different things

I'm an advocate of the punishment fitting the crime, if a player 'cheats' and is prepared to get an opponent sent off and I catch him, I'd happily send him off, at the moment as the laws stand, we can't

However what you just described is correct, he deliberately trips over the opponent, which is not a dive, however his action was an attempt to deliberately 'con' the referee, which is unsporting behaviour, which is an offence punishable with a yellow card which he got.

As I said, I'd like to see them sent off, that'll stop it happening, or at least, offer the opponents some protection from deliberate cheating, agree?
 
It can be done if you believe that the player is "feigning injury" or is trying to influence your decision (ie trying to get a red instead off a yellow out of you). It is very rarely done mainly because it makes you look a bit stupid saying it was simulation and DOGSO at the same time, however sometimes it could aid your match control by showing that you won't be influenced by players, but you would have to explain to both captains (I think) so that everyone knows what is happening and so you don't get 22 players surrounding you asking questions.
 
I agree with you that we are not prem refs on a Saturday/Sunday morning, but what I am trying to point out is that you were wrong in your description, that was all, that was just an example that I could show. I agree that the laws don't allow us to deal with cheaters efficiently, but we have to go by the laws just as players do.

I do agree that we should be able to do more.
 
Such a difficult one to call. Personally, I don't think there is anything in Law that says a player can't go down under a challenge, nor is there anything in Law preventing a player from appealing for a free kick/penalty. For me the big thing is 'contact/appeal'. A player goes down without contact and appeals - it is simulation. Regardless of how much rolling around he does.

Feigning injury is is even harder to call - we are not medics so we can;t tell if someone is genuinely injured or not. Players who 'require treatment' are now instructed to leave the FOP so that a fake injury doesn't hold up the game. If it's a genuine injury, then the team that has been fouled and received the free kick, are now disatvantaged by being reduced to ten, and there's a 10% chance it's their top free kick taker who has been ordered off the FOP!

Likewise, I don't see anything in the LOTG that prevents a player from manipulating the situation in order to ensure contact is made with an opponent and claiming that as a foul - as per the Young example. Clearly, it was not a foul tackle but Young didn't simulate anything either, there was contact, he went down and appealed. "No foul, get up and get on with it and stop pansying around son". The fact Young stuck his leg out and dragged the foot doesn't really come into it, because again, players are allowed to stick their legs out in the course of a game.

Similar thing happened at Chelsea against WBrom - Chelsea attacker clearly drew the contact in on himself, and went down. Again, there's nothing wrong in positioning yourself between the ball and defender as in this case, and nothing wrong in going down under the challenge/contact and asking the Referee to make a decision. If it wasn't given, he'd have given up possession in the dying seconds of a game they were losing, instead he took a gamble and saved his team a point.

So for me, simulation is just that - pretending something happened when it didn't.
I don't have a problem with players going down and appealing, if they don't accept my decision then they are heading for a dissent card.
Feigning injury is the one I always struggle with......
 
A tangent from this. Very recent match, played dives straight into a tackle. Huge yell from the opponent, no doubt he's been caught hard and late. Call the offender over and am preparing to deal with him - considering red for SFP, the hear and see the fouled player laughing and saying how he has got the other player sent off. It's caution for the fouler then. Not having that, if you're laughing like that the foul is not actually as bad as I first thought - you've tried to con me.
 
But then, if Ashely Young has kicked the other players leg, than the FK can be given for kicking correct? And a YC can be issued if the referee wants.

Nothing says a player can't make a meal of it if there is contact, but he can't initiate the contact, such as the Young diving/kick.
 
jojo said:
But then, if Ashely Young has kicked the other players leg, than the FK can be given for kicking correct? And a YC can be issued if the referee wants.

Nothing says a player can't make a meal of it if there is contact, but he can't initiate the contact, such as the Young diving/kick.
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Young didn't kick the other player though, he just made sure he tripped over the leg.
 
I disagree, he kicks the other players leg as he runs past.
 
Well I think you could punish for either and both would be acceptable. I would probably punish for simulation
 
jojo said:
Well I think you could punish for either and both would be acceptable. I would probably punish for simulation
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You should punish the worst offence, which would be kicking. Although I can see where you are coming from, and 'simulation' is always going to be a tricky one to call.

If memory serves, got a yellow for simulation in that incident anyway, and Rooney only got yellow for kicking the lad at Cardiff so who knows what ......lol
 
I agree with the worst offence, but I would make an example by cautioning Young for simulation. Shows to media, fans, players, managers, anyone involved with football that you shouldn't be diving and referees will pick up on it, and Young will know he can't get away with it anymore.

Rooneys should've been red though! :rolleyes:
 
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