Confronted after the Cup Final

[higdawgy]

I posted a while back about a confrontation that I don't think I handled too well after a match and I had another one in a Cup Final yesterday.

The coach of the losing side is a generally loud, bad-tempered person. He has been cautioned at least 3 times this season for dissent by referees that I know of.

During the first half I blew for a free-kick against his side, he gave the normal sort of whinge about it, "oh come on, there's two sides out here ref" etc.
I warned him that was enough of that type of complaining because he was loud and aggressive in his tone.

Half way through the second half I have given a free-kick against his side and he screams loudly something like "NO, NO, NO! COME ON!"
I told the players to delay the restart of play and proceed to show him a yellow card, he claimed that he was yelling at his own player, while loudly yelling at me.
Two points to this, either way, he deserved a yellow card. I thought he was yelling at me so it was dissent, but if he was yelling at his own player then for one of a few reasons listed either; acting in a provocative or inflammatory manner, persistent unacceptable behaviour or showing a lack of respect for the game.

After the match, everyone shook hands and after he shook hands with us he started to tell me how I was wrong and he was yelling at his own player. I explained that I thought he was yelling at me, but even if he was yelling at his own player it was still unacceptable behaviour that warranted a caution.
He attempted to continue arguing and I instructed him that I had explained the sanction and asked that he leave the field, he turned and started to walk away. One of his players asked me (nicely) to explain to him why you can get a card for yelling at one of your own players, he was friendly and said thanks when I explained.
The coach then turned around and started with your typical rant while walking back towards me "this is what's wrong with referees, it's always the bloody same, it's a joke" etc. while continuing to walk towards me pointing at me while yelling.
I told him that it was not acceptable to confront a match official in that manner and showed him a red card.

I took some lessons from the incident that I had earlier in the year and feel that I handled the incidents better in the match this weekend than I had earlier in the season.


Happy for any comments that people may have, obviously a lot of it is you had to be there kind of stuff.

Thanks.

 

[Anubis]

Talk calmy, something with empathy, " i understand if you thought it was a harsh yellow, its done now, games over, lets leave it there"

 

[Southerner In The North]

It’s down to your interpretation if you thought it was at you it’s a yellow personally from what you described I think I’m not booking as to me I have to be sure it’s at me because that at his own player I think is fair game in OA.

 

[Max2]

Coaches with the biggest gobs have the thinnest skin.

 

[Tealeaf]

.
Two points to this, either way, he deserved a yellow card. I thought he was yelling at me so it was dissent, but if he was yelling at his own player then for one of a few reasons listed either; acting in a provocative or inflammatory manner, persistent unacceptable behaviour or showing a lack of respect for the game.

Two points here - if it’s at you, then definitely within your rights to caution him after the prior warning.

If it genuinely is at his player, I think you’re on much shakier ground. It’s a bit of a stretch to justify the caution for me. I’d back you publicly, but in private I’d say much the same as I have here.

Now for what it’s worth it’s most likely aimed at you. Especially given his previous actions. If he wants to dispute it afterwards, he’s clearly not learning. I may say “in future, stay off my back” or similar or even “it’s done”.

 

[Russell Jones]

Whilst the original yellow is, as detailed by other posters, debateable, his actions at full time are not. Well done for setting an example by correctly showing the red card when he confronted you on the FOP at the end of the game

 

[santa sangria]

I'll bite... YHTBT but maybe... reading "no, no, no, come on..." makes your actions seem harsh and like you may have contributed to escalating the situation. It's a cup final, expect some passion. Of course, you can decide it was a yellow card offence, but on another day, could you have just ignored it and/or focused on the players near you and communicated with them - so you can support you match control on the field?

We have to choose when to interfere, when to raise our involvement, when to act decisively, when to take over... we have to choose our battles... at a "normal" free kick, the coach is not happy... was it really the moment...?

 

[higdawgy]

I'll bite... YHTBT but maybe... reading "no, no, no, come on..." makes your actions seem harsh and like you may have contributed to escalating the situation. It's a cup final, expect some passion. Of course, you can decide it was a yellow card offence, but on another day, could you have just ignored it and/or focused on the players near you and communicated with them - so you can support you match control on the field?

We have to choose when to interfere, when to raise our involvement, when to act decisively, when to take over... we have to choose our battles... at a "normal" free kick, the coach is not happy... was it really the moment...?

Fully understand your comment, if it was just said in a normal voice I would agree but this was yelled aggressively and quite loud.


The funny thing is that the card did its job, he didn't show any vocal dissent for the rest of the match. The winning goal wasn't scored till the 86th minute so tensions were quite high right until the end.

 

[Kes]

Shouting at his own player was he?

Don't suppose he used this player's name at all eh?

If you felt the yellow was right then it was. You could argue It's not acceptable for any coach to be screaming at anybody on the field in that manner.

Technically in law, the red was correct too.

 

[GraemeS]

100% supportable if directed at you. And from a manager who's already had to be told to calm down, 100% supportable to assume anything borderline is aimed at you.

I think you would have been better off not even seriously entertaining the idea of it being aimed at his own player- that's clearly a fiction to try and get you not to card. You can book for that of course, but I'd want much harsher language and/or threats, the language as described is textbook dissent as part of a pattern, but doesn't come close to AA or OFFINABUS outside of that. You're on much more solid ground if you just take that claim with a wry smile, show the card for dissent regardless and then move on.

 

[Southerner In The North]

100% supportable if directed at you. And from a manager who's already had to be told to calm down, 100% supportable to assume anything borderline is aimed at you.

I think you would have been better off not even seriously entertaining the idea of it being aimed at his own player- that's clearly a fiction to try and get you not to card. You can book for that of course, but I'd want much harsher language and/or threats, the language as described is textbook dissent as part of a pattern, but doesn't come close to AA or OFFINABUS outside of that. You're on much more solid ground if you just take that claim with a wry smile, show the card for dissent regardless and then move on.

Honestly from the original post and knowing coaches I’m inclined to believe it’s at his player as generally that comment would be odd at a ref.
It’s up to personal preference but I’m honestly probably assuming it’s at a player and unless it’s overlay aggressive considering it part of coaching at OA.

 

[GraemeS]

Honestly from the original post and knowing coaches I’m inclined to believe it’s at his player as generally that comment would be odd at a ref.
It’s up to personal preference but I’m honestly probably assuming it’s at a player and unless it’s overlay aggressive considering it part of coaching at OA.

Really? Add the word "ref" to the end of that sentence and you get the following:

Half way through the second half I have given a free-kick against his side and he screams loudly something like "NO, NO, NO! COME ON REF!"​

If this is a manager who has imagined some kind of grievance against his team and who is already on a warning for expressive that too aggressively? 100% that reads exactly like something I'd hear shouted at me from someone like that. Replace the "ref" with "Dave" and it doesn't make much sense to me unless Dave has a record of giving away dumb fouls - and even then, I'd be expecting something more specific if it was actual "coaching".

 

[Southerner In The North]

Really? Add the word "ref" to the end of that sentence and you get the following:

Half way through the second half I have given a free-kick against his side and he screams loudly something like "NO, NO, NO! COME ON REF!"​

If this is a manager who has imagined some kind of grievance against his team and who is already on a warning for expressive that too aggressively? 100% that reads exactly like something I'd hear shouted at me from someone like that. Replace the "ref" with "Dave" and it doesn't make much sense to me unless Dave has a record of giving away dumb fouls - and even then, I'd be expecting something more specific if it was actual "coaching".

Key word there is add without it added your guessing and you shouldn’t be doing that I quite often got comments like above as a player if I was treading a fine line as I often did.

 

[GraemeS]

Key word there is add without it added your guessing and you shouldn’t be doing that I quite often got comments like above as a player if I was treading a fine line as I often did.

It's directed at someone, so it's reasonable to add a word for clarity - which of "ref" and "Dave" do you think makes most sense?

I don't really see any reason why we should give this guy the benefit of the doubt? He's a manager who has already caused the game to be delayed so our OP could give him the initial warning and he's yelled in response to a foul decision. He's been warned, he's failed to be careful enough with his words, he gets the resulting punishment.

The coaching point here isn't that the decision to card was wrong. The OP felt in the moment it was dissent, carding for that is entirely justifiable. The thing our OP should take from this is that the claim that it was directed at a player isn't really relevant and should have been dismissed rather than engaged with.

 

[RyantheRef]

If you felt the yellow was right then it was.

No, hold on. It could definitely have not been right. In fact, I'd argue that "No, no, no, come on!" fails to meet the threshold of public, provocative, and personal that has been a standard for dissent for a very long time. YHTBT, but I doubt if this is something that warrants a caution based solely on the words used.

That being said, it was given and while I support the referee's right to make the decision, we have to accept and acknowledge that wrong decisions can be taken.

The red card was absolutely correct, by the way.

 

[Macca]

No, hold on. It could definitely have not been right. In fact, I'd argue that "No, no, no, come on!" fails to meet the threshold of public, provocative, and personal that has been a standard for dissent for a very long time. YHTBT, but I doubt if this is something that warrants a caution based solely on the words used.

That being said, it was given and while I support the referee's right to make the decision, we have to accept and acknowledge that wrong decisions can be taken.

The red card was absolutely correct, by the way.

Since when is dissent personal?
Just needs to be a public disagreement with a referees decision. Apply common sense then (reactive and low-level vs provocative).

I don't think I've ever regretted carding someone for dissent and I do it a lot. Don't want a card, keep quiet.
Not sure why we as referees are expected to always keep hold of our emotions but team officials get a free pass.

 

[Kes]

No, hold on. It could definitely have not been right. In fact, I'd argue that "No, no, no, come on!" fails to meet the threshold of public, provocative, and personal that has been a standard for dissent for a very long time. YHTBT, but I doubt if this is something that warrants a caution based solely on the words used.

That being said, it was given and while I support the referee's right to make the decision, we have to accept and acknowledge that wrong decisions can be taken.

Google "dissent" or even look it up in the book mate ...

 

[Libano Ref]

I was put in a situation once where an assistant manager (or so I thought) was having a joke with the opposition manager towards the end of an intense 1-1 fixture, before saying "ask the ****er in the black". From the voice, I was 75% sure it was the assistant manager, but it could've been one of the players on the bench, it could've been the opposition manager.. I was not 100% sure, so I turned a deaf ear, or else he's off. I do not entertain that battle, because I am not certain.

Once you've given the yellow, I think it's done and you can justify it as you did, but perhaps just make your life easier and wait for one you're 110% sure off for a yellow. At that rate, he would've probably said it in the next controversial play. Completely agree with the red as well, like everyone here. It's all about the battles you pick.