A&H

Cautions

Justylove said:
maybe we’ll agree to disagree, but I’m selling a sit down for 8 minutes rather than a send off. If he had interspersed an expletive in there as well, then I’d probably be leaning towards a red.
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Have to agree with @Kes and @socal lurker . You are going about this the wrong way around. You are deciding the punishment first then finding the offence to suite it. Find the offence first then apply the punishment that goes with it.

EDIT: have to add, I can go either way on this (YHTBT), but can certainly see a red in it.
 
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one said:
Have to agree with @Kes and @socal lurker . You are going about this the wrong way around. You are deciding the punishment first then finding the offence to suite it. Find the offence first then apply the punishment that goes with it.

EDIT: have to add, I can go either way on this (YHTBT), but can certainly see a red in it.
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Maybe it’s because I’ve got a 12 year old son, or maybe it’s because I never do that age group of football, only ever OA with a bit of U18’s very occasionally. If a player said that to me in that way, I’d not be thinking in any way of that being a red card.
Far from trying to find a punishment to fit a crime, it’s the other way round, but hey as with much of these things it’s the opinion of the referee on the day!
 
Justylove said:
Maybe it’s because I’ve got a 12 year old son, or maybe it’s because I never do that age group of football, only ever OA with a bit of U18’s very occasionally. If a player said that to me in that way, I’d not be thinking in any way of that being a red card.
Far from trying to find a punishment to fit a crime, it’s the other way round, but hey as with much of these things it’s the opinion of the referee on the day!
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I'd find it difficult to be insulted by 12 year old TBH
My alarm bells might not get triggered
 
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That gave me a brilliant idea.

Call the Sin-bin area (with a sign post) for youth football "the naughty corner". No way any kid wants to end up there in front of their friends.
 
Justylove said:
Far from trying to find a punishment to fit a crime, it’s the other way round, but hey as with much of these things it’s the opinion of the referee on the day!
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Many, many things are in the opinion of the referee but I would have to say I find if difficult to see how (as @Kes points out) the phrase, ”shut up you’re a rubbish ref find a new job” meets the definition of, "public disagreement (by word or action) with the referees decision/actions." The player is not expressing disagreement with a specific decision, he's making a general comment about the referee's overall performance. I'm not personally convinced that there's enough there for a sending-off but I don't think it's totally beyond the realms of possibility to see it as offensive and insulting, either.
 
Peter Grove said:
Many, many things are in the opinion of the referee but I would have to say I find if difficult to see how (as @Kes points out) the phrase, ”shut up you’re a rubbish ref find a new job” meets the definition of, "public disagreement (by word or action) with the referees decision/actions." The player is not expressing disagreement with a specific decision, he's making a general comment about the referee's overall performance. I'm not personally convinced that there's enough there for a sending-off but I don't think it's totally beyond the realms of possibility to see it as offensive and insulting, either.
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Break the comment down:
1) Shut Up - for me that’s a player saying that they don’t want to hear what I’m saying because they disagree
2) You’re rubbish - this I get could be classed as offensive or insulting, but again I’d view this as being them saying it because the disagree with a decision I’ve made.
3) Get another job - again I’d infer this is disagreement rather than offensive.

If I put it all together - easily go sin bin for dissent (as the OP said he should have done), at a push you could caution for showing lack of respect for the game. I can’t see how you could justify any other caution code. I’m also pretty sure if I spoke to my coach and told him I’d sent a kid off for OFFINABUS for that comment he’d be having an long chat with me.

Each to their own. Maybe that’s why I don’t do kids games!
 
I suppose it is all about tolerance levels. We all have our own idea of when dissent becomes OFFINABUS. I would only sin bin as there are no swear words in what was said.
 
Kes said:
Horses for courses I suppose Justy. ;)

Ask yourself this though ... if you'd said to a player "Shut up, you're a crap footballer - find another sport". Do you suppose he'd find it offensive or insulting?
If proven and you admitted it, do you think your County FA would be so lenient?
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I’d expect a ban, I’d also expect a ban of it was proven that I’d started sarcastically applauding a player for making good passes or laughing at them if they missed an easy chance.

Ask yourself this, if a player said that in an OA game, would you send off for it?
 
Peter Grove said:
Many, many things are in the opinion of the referee but I would have to say I find if difficult to see how (as @Kes points out) the phrase, ”shut up you’re a rubbish ref find a new job” meets the definition of, "public disagreement (by word or action) with the referees decision/actions." The player is not expressing disagreement with a specific decision, he's making a general comment about the referee's overall performance. I'm not personally convinced that there's enough there for a sending-off but I don't think it's totally beyond the realms of possibility to see it as offensive and insulting, either.
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And there lieth the problem of backchat in games. As a community of referees we really do need to agree what constitutes OFFINABUS and everybody stick to it. Tolerance levels are then taken out of it. If anyone, let alone an u12 player, says the above to me, they're getting a red. No question.

Until we start showing some respect for ourselves and our abilities, no one else will.
 
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Justylove said:
Maybe it’s because I’ve got a 12 year old son, or maybe it’s because I never do that age group of football, only ever OA with a bit of U18’s very occasionally. If a player said that to me in that way, I’d not be thinking in any way of that being a red card.
Far from trying to find a punishment to fit a crime, it’s the other way round, but hey as with much of these things it’s the opinion of the referee on the day!
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My son used to be 12 as well mate. ;)

I only posted what I did as an alternative view (which, it seems most on here subscribe to anyways), but it raises once more the question of what actually constitutes OFFINABUS.
The context in which I look at it (particularly in relation to the OP who it seems is only a year or two older than the offender in this case) is the LOTG. Sure, one man's OFFINABUS is another man's dissent in terms of personal perception/feeling, but an insult is an insult.
Truth is, I can't imagine any 12/13 year old footballer having the gall to speak to me like that so it's not something I can say I have experience of but the acid test is in Law 12. Offensive (possibly) Insulting (definitely) Abusive (if I were a 14 year old I'd guess so). So how you can hear "only dissent" when in fact it's not is a mystery to me. Just because there are no sweary words in it doesn't downgrade it to dissent.
As a 53 year old bloke who is pretty thick-skinned, I'm leaning towards a red card for any player who tells me to shut up, that I'm rubbish and that I shouldn't be there - irrespective of age. :)
 
Justylove said:
Ask yourself this, if a player said that in an OA game, would you send off for it?
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I get where you're coming from.

If he said that to another player then of course not. But you can't see yourself as another player when you're a referee mate. :cool:
 
I reckon if he did get a red, it would be the first and only time he spoke like that to a ref!!

Personally I wouldn't send someone off for saying that to me (I only do adult football), but if someone else did, I wouldn't have an issue with it at all and would understand why.
 
Kes said:
That's when the 12 year realises that he can pretty much talk to the ref how he likes (a bit like his teachers at school) and get away with it.

He's one of the problem players when he gets to U16 and beyond ... :cool:
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But if you sin bin him for dissent, he hasn’t got away with it.

He’s had to sit out a period of time and cannot play during that period. Of course, 30 seconds from the end of the game is not a massive amount of time, but you don’t adjust the sanction to force fit it into the scenario.

I think this thread is going way off track to be honest. The OP said he cautioned the player. Clearly he didn’t feel it was an OFFINABUS offence either, otherwise he would have dismissed the player, not cautioned.

The point became “what did he caution for?” NOT “why did he only caution and not send the player off?”

As he, as the referee chose to caution, then the only things he could caution for would be:

1) showing a lack of respect for the game (standard caution)
2) AAA - which we’ve discussed would be incorrect as a sanction for this offence
3) Dissent - in which case it requires a Sin Bin
 
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TSHudson said:
I reckon if he did get a red, it would be the first and only time he spoke like that to a ref!!
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My experience of human nature suggests that if they feel it was unjust, and especially if that view is backed up by teammates and/or the manager, it will have no effect whatsoever on future behaviour. Except, ironically, apart from reinforcing their belief that some referees don't have a clue what they're doing.
 
In my view it is clearly insulting, though perhaps not in the same ballpark as 'cheat'.
It is directly aimed at the referees competence and not at any one particular decision. This is not on, especially not from a 13 year old. Goodbye lad, catch you in a few weeks.
 
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