Bishop's Stortford FC v Spennymoor Town FC
- Thread starter RefGod
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I suspect that this will be a one time only posting as I am not a referee but this link came up on my Google Recommendations.
The camera angle threw me because I was on the opposite side of the pitch and behind the play.
I was both surprised and relieved to see the yellow card but hadn't appreciated the position of the defenders.
This season we at Stortford have blamed many for our plight (bottom of the league with no points this side of Christmas), from the FA for putting us in a Northern division (a close to 480 miles round trip on a Tuesday night for Spennymore hardly feels regional), our own players and their poor disciplinary records to referees who, seemingly, give all the decisions to the opposition. On the night though, I think the only complaint we could have had was that the referee blew the final whistle about 30 seconds after we wanted!
The camera angle threw me because I was on the opposite side of the pitch and behind the play.
I was both surprised and relieved to see the yellow card but hadn't appreciated the position of the defenders.
This season we at Stortford have blamed many for our plight (bottom of the league with no points this side of Christmas), from the FA for putting us in a Northern division (a close to 480 miles round trip on a Tuesday night for Spennymore hardly feels regional), our own players and their poor disciplinary records to referees who, seemingly, give all the decisions to the opposition. On the night though, I think the only complaint we could have had was that the referee blew the final whistle about 30 seconds after we wanted!
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
In my mind, the only reason 'everyone expects' a red card is because they've not made any effort to truly understand the Law, the exact offence and the required thought process. As evidence I present the player / pundit obsession with the phrase "last man" which is such an over simplification as to be deeply unhelpful rather than helpful in getting to the correct outcome. This is not in any way an issue with the considerations ... all they do is help guide the referee to the answer to the only relevant question (if you ignore possible SFP). Was this actually an OBVIOUS GOAL SCORING OPPORTUNITY. The answer to that is (fairly clearly) no and I'd expect every well informed referee to get to that pretty swiftly. Giving a red card in this situation would simply prolong / deepen the already existing confusion about DOGSO in the minds of all those involved in the game.
Fully agree with your assessment overall except the part about is this an obvious opportunity to score a goal. And I think this is the bit that muddies the water.In my mind, the only reason 'everyone expects' a red card is because they've not made any effort to truly understand the Law, the exact offence and the required thought process. As evidence I present the player / pundit obsession with the phrase "last man" which is such an over simplification as to be deeply unhelpful rather than helpful in getting to the correct outcome. This is not in any way an issue with the considerations ... all they do is help guide the referee to the answer to the only relevant question (if you ignore possible SFP). Was this actually an OBVIOUS GOAL SCORING OPPORTUNITY. The answer to that is (fairly clearly) no and I'd expect every well informed referee to get to that pretty swiftly. Giving a red card in this situation would simply prolong / deepen the already existing confusion about DOGSO in the minds of all those involved in the game.
I think in lay terms, you ask that simple question, it is. When you apply the LOTG reasoning for what is an OGSO it isn't.
It's essentially the same issue we have with law 11 around lay meaning of interfering with play/opponent.
Yes. Everyone in the game, aside from Referees, would class this as an OGSO
It's unrealistic for us to change that, so we should fit in with expectation. We should cast aside any notion of the tail (referees/ifab) wagging the dog (expectation/understanding) as this is clearly unrealistic in the real world.
I don't agree with pundit bashing. It doesn't matter what the sport is, once the rules are anything like complicated, participants will show disinterest.
I do agree with LOTG bashing however. The Laws are cryptic and don't merit interest from the wider football community
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Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
W
Wow. Then we will need to agree to disagree on this. For me, the striker's extremely heavy touch has played the ball to a place where he is highly unlikely to get to the ball first. Turns it from an Obvious opportunity to an outside chance. And, unlike in many other areas of the poorly worded laws, obvious does actually mean what it normally means in this context.
I agree, far too many doubts for this to be obvious.
The bad touch is on account of immanent death. Cause and effect. He's hardly gonna kick it like that if bearing down on goal, instead of being wiped out
Russell Jones
RefChat Addict
Understand the point. And certainly important for us to decide if a bad touch was caused by the foul. But in this case there's no offence by the GK before the touch occurs, so no 'free pass' given to the attacker IMO. In all seriousness, if you see the challenge as having endangered the attacker's safety, then go red for SFP and then it's hard for anyone (observer included) to argue otherwise
Yes, we're all agreed (at least I think we are) that SFP is the shrewd Referee's option
I'm still thinking SFP.In my mind, the only reason 'everyone expects' a red card is because they've not made any effort to truly understand the Law, the exact offence and the required thought process. As evidence I present the player / pundit obsession with the phrase "last man" which is such an over simplification as to be deeply unhelpful rather than helpful in getting to the correct outcome. This is not in any way an issue with the considerations ... all they do is help guide the referee to the answer to the only relevant question (if you ignore possible SFP). Was this actually an OBVIOUS GOAL SCORING OPPORTUNITY. The answer to that is (fairly clearly) no and I'd expect every well informed referee to get to that pretty swiftly. Giving a red card in this situation would simply prolong / deepen the already existing confusion about DOGSO in the minds of all those involved in the game.
My second and (possibly) last posting here.
I've read all the comments on this thread and two things jump out:
1. "I've watched it again..." (or 3 times). On the night, the referee had one view on the night. As I said before, I was surprised by the yellow card.
2. There still seems to be differing opinions amongst the posters. Do we need VAR at National League North level (Southern League Central I suspect next season)?
And it brings me to the conclusion that I wouldn't want to be your shoes (boots?) on a cold, wet February night (or any other night, come to that) with a decision like that to make.
I've read all the comments on this thread and two things jump out:
1. "I've watched it again..." (or 3 times). On the night, the referee had one view on the night. As I said before, I was surprised by the yellow card.
2. There still seems to be differing opinions amongst the posters. Do we need VAR at National League North level (Southern League Central I suspect next season)?
And it brings me to the conclusion that I wouldn't want to be your shoes (boots?) on a cold, wet February night (or any other night, come to that) with a decision like that to make.
Your first posting was going to be your only... You're being sucked in, admit it!
Expecting Red? As refs get more experienced the ability to run through some considerations to get to a decision is faster.
There will never be VAR below Championship imo due to cost.
You sure we can't tempt you?
Worth adding the reason people bemoan VAR is because of situations like this, where we can't agree on an outcome despite having hours to look at it. It's a subjective decision. As long as these exist, people will think VAR is rubbish, because everyone expects VAR to mean there's no disagreeing with any key match decisions.
Also, as James said, are you sure we can't tempt you? It's enjoyable really! (Mostly)
I think I agree. To me he looks out of control and it is incredibly late. If the game ‘expects’ a red card here, the only way I can see to justify one is through SFP.
Me suckered in? No way...wait a minute, how did that happen?!
I do agree regarding the cost of VAR, but with many clubs videoing matches for their YouTube channels, could there be some sort of argument for a VAR Lite? Or would that be as much use a Lite beer?
Sorry James (and RefereeX), there's no way you could persuade me! I'm
a) unfit,
b) too old (nearly 64),
c) not thick skinned enough (I've expressed my views to referees from the terraces often over the years, but always, I hope, within boundaries) and,
d) if I can be suckered in by neutral referees, just imagine what sneaky footballers could do!
I do agree regarding the cost of VAR, but with many clubs videoing matches for their YouTube channels, could there be some sort of argument for a VAR Lite? Or would that be as much use a Lite beer?
Sorry James (and RefereeX), there's no way you could persuade me! I'm
a) unfit,
b) too old (nearly 64),
c) not thick skinned enough (I've expressed my views to referees from the terraces often over the years, but always, I hope, within boundaries) and,
d) if I can be suckered in by neutral referees, just imagine what sneaky footballers could do!
I used to be one of the worst for blaming the referee when I was a season ticket holder at a midlands based team that play in claret and white and are known for making shoes. Now, when I make it to a game I sit and cringe at some of the shouts around me.
Yes. It was actually my referee bashing that made me get into it. Got so mad one day supporting my team based in Yorkshire, city famous for steel and famous for playing cricket on a certain day of the week, that I said stuff this I'm going to do it myself.
And I am horrified at myself sometimes as to how I used to be
Wonderful thing about refereeing (and this forum has taught me) is everything is in the eye of the beholder.
As a new referee about to embark on their career, my thought process is the mitigating factors to go down from a red, or conversly, the aggravating factors to go up to a red card.
Taking this example, I am immediately thinking:
- Is it DOGSO? Enough doubt whether the defender(s) is going to beat the attacker to the ball - therefore not a red card.
- Is it SFP? Out of control, late, lunge, endangered an opponent - potentially a red card but any doubt and then i'm going yellow (camera view and quality isn't great to see the contact)