Billy Gilmour vs Harry Maguire

[The Ginger Ref]

Seems to be a hot debate from yesterday.

Match of the day panel were even split, some saying Gilmour's wasn't a red

For me, both are stonewall red cards as they tick this criteria exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off

Add to the debate Caicedo who has just ended Gravenberch's league cup final with an equally horrific tackle.

Billy Gilmour's red versus Harry Maguire's yellow - Was there a difference?

How much of a difference was there between the red card challenge of Billy Gilmour and that of Harry Maguire which only received a booking?

www.skysports.com

 

[RustyRef]

I would have thought the difference was very obvious. Gilmour caught his opponent very high on the leg, well above the ankle. Maguire and Caidedo caught their opponents on the foot and were clearly not red cards.

 

[The Ginger Ref]

I would have thought the difference was very obvious. Gilmour caught his opponent very high on the leg, well above the ankle. Maguire and Caidedo caught their opponents on the foot and were clearly not red cards.

Can you show me in the laws of the game where it says the location of the tackle dictates the punishment? (I tried for this not to sound flippant, but can't )

If anything, Maguire and Caicedo's challenges are worse in regards to endagering an opponent as the ankle and foot are more susceptible to injury, however, broken legs are more serious (but rarer), both should be protected in the same regard.

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play." = Maguire case and point, Cacedo seen them given.

 

[JamesL]

Can you show me in the laws of the game where it says the location of the tackle dictates the punishment? (I tried for this not to sound flippant, but can't )

It doesn't.

But it is how it is taught and interpreted in England especially. When you watch the mic'd up shows you will hear them discuss point of contact and invariably where that is foot it is rarely upgraded/recommended for review on YC OFD.

Generally contact around the foot, and ankle are seen as less severe than with the the leg above the ankle. It was my own thinking too, that the point of contact looks way more severe in the first challenge than the other two. The Caicedo one looks the worse of the two as the ankle has buckled.

 

[The Ginger Ref]

I think for a good few years the Gilmour challenge has been established as a text book red card, because of the point of contact that has been mentioned.

However, in my opinion, the point of contact shouldn't be the mitigation used for challenges like the Maguire challenge, they are equally as dangerous and carry the same amount of force as Gilmour.

 

[Russell Jones]

I think for a good few years the Gilmour challenge has been established as a text book red card, because of the point of contact that has been mentioned.

However, in my opinion, the point of contact shouldn't be the mitigation used for challenges like the Maguire challenge, they are equally as dangerous and carry the same amount of force as Gilmour.

And you're completely entitled to that opinion. However, as @JamesL says, it's not the guidance being given to senior referees and therefore expecting them to give a red here is mistaken.

 

[RefGod]

PGMOL training clips show the officials talking about the point of contact every time. Sometimes it's the only matter discussed.

 

[santa sangria]

Can you show me in the laws of the game where it says the location of the tackle dictates the punishment? (I tried for this not to sound flippant, but can't )

If anything, Maguire and Caicedo's challenges are worse in regards to endagering an opponent as the ankle and foot are more susceptible to injury, however, broken legs are more serious (but rarer), both should be protected in the same regard.

"Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play." = Maguire case and point, Cacedo seen them given.

You should also refer to the FIFA “considerations” list. Referees at the highest levels, FIFA/UEFA training - plus “all” related grassroots ref training around the world includes “point of contact” as one of the key considerations when judging foul sanctions.

 

[deusex]

Sorry OP but have you played the game?
These challenges happen! They hurt like hell but in no way are "excessive force".
Everyone in England is expecting nothing more than a caution for the Macguire & Caicado challenge.

 

[The Ginger Ref]

Sorry OP but have you played the game?
These challenges happen! They hurt like hell but in no way are "excessive force".
Everyone in England is expecting nothing more than a caution for the Macguire & Caicado challenge.

No need to be so patronising in your response.

 

[RefereeX]

I think the point of contact thing also comes down to how much of a normal footballing challenge it is.
As you say, the foot/ankle may be more susceptible to injury, but situations like the Maguire and Caicedo one are far more likely to happen as a result of a relatively normal challenge for the ball, but you're not going to get a point of contact like the Gilmore one without it being a very poor tackle.

Does that make sense?

 

[The Ginger Ref]

It makes sense and I do understand that whilst not in law, the height/location of the challenge is a consideration. However, I disagree that Maguire's challenge cannot be considered a red card because of the location of the tackle, and there is enough discussion in the media to suggest that this challenge isn't "just a yellow".

I think the Gilmour challenge is incredibly poor and is a red card, but IMHO so is Maguire's. Taking the Caicedo one out of the equation, as I do think it is more a yellow card as its just a bit clumsy.

Maguire's if anything is more out of control than Gilmour is, both are chasing a run away ball in frustration, both have lunged from a distance and have caught their opponent in a dangerous manner that endagers them. The impact and bend of the Fulham player's ankle suggests excessive force, Maguire has a straight leg, goes in studs up and is later than the LNER service from London to Edinburgh.

Romero was sent off against Chelsea for pretty much an identical challenge on Enzo Fernandez earlier on this season.

What I do concede is that without the luxury of VAR, unless you have seen the full extent of the challenge, that sending a player off for this would be a 'brave decision'

 

[RustyRef]

It makes sense and I do understand that whilst not in law, the height/location of the challenge is a consideration. However, I disagree that Maguire's challenge cannot be considered a red card because of the location of the tackle, and there is enough discussion in the media to suggest that this challenge isn't "just a yellow".

I think the Gilmour challenge is incredibly poor and is a red card, but IMHO so is Maguire's. Taking the Caicedo one out of the equation, as I do think it is more a yellow card as its just a bit clumsy.

Maguire's if anything is more out of control than Gilmour is, both are chasing a run away ball in frustration, both have lunged from a distance and have caught their opponent in a dangerous manner that endagers them. The impact and bend of the Fulham player's ankle suggests excessive force, Maguire has a straight leg, goes in studs up and is later than the LNER service from London to Edinburgh.

Romero was sent off against Chelsea for pretty much an identical challenge on Enzo Fernandez earlier on this season.

What I do concede is that without the luxury of VAR, unless you have seen the full extent of the challenge, that sending a player off for this would be a 'brave decision'

Wasn't the Romero one much higher up the leg? I would also argue that the discussion in the media about the Maguire challenge is because of who it was, it lets them mile on the narrative around what a clown Maguire is / how bad Man Utd are. had it been Jonny Evans making the exact same challenge there's be way less noise.