Baggies v Reds

[JamesL]

There is a difference between a incorrectly taken restart and an incorrect restart taken (but the restart the referee deemed as correct).

We can use @RustyRef 's goal kick vs corner kick here.

You're not following (at least I don't think you are). Graeme sees what I mean.
Ref stops for a dropped ball. The ball Is not dropped by the referee to a player from the team who last touched the ball.
That could be reviewed, just as a double touch, or ball not stationary.
As we dont actually know why play was stopped, we do t know the restart But if as Graeme was suggesting, Mike Dean willingly let Fabinho drop the ball to himself, surely that gets looked at.

 

[JamesL]

OK, I'm with you now.

We'd need to hear the comms really - if MD instructed a FK, or even blew his whistle, said nothing and then allowed the game to continue, I don't think there's a case. That incorrect decision to restart with a FK is not reviewable.

If he blew his whistle, instructed a drop ball and Fabinho ignored him, then yes - what we have in an "incorrectly carried out drop ball" that I think is maaaaaaaybe reviewable. But in that latter case, you'd have to ask why he'd allow the game to continue for so long knowing the restart was incorrect? Much more likely IMO that in the heat of the moment, he just made an incorrect decision on how to restart, and if that's true, I don't think there's any way it could be reviewed.

Yes, I agree, I thought you were suggesting that MD just let Fabinho drop the ball, which then would move it into reviewable, pending all other criteria. Very unlikely that was the case but just chucking it in there.

 

[Big Cat]

FWIW, I had a defensive player run into the back of me a few years back and the resultant play led to a goal. I got the blame of course, even though I'd have needed wing mirrors to see the player
Generally speaking, regardless of the dirge of a book, I vowed thereafter that a DB is the way to go when such a thing happens

 

[one]

You're not following (at least I don't think you are). Graeme sees what I mean.
Ref stops for a dropped ball. The ball Is not dropped by the referee to a player from the team who last touched the ball.
That could be reviewed, just as a double touch, or ball not stationary.
As we dont actually know why play was stopped, we do t know the restart But if as Graeme was suggesting, Mike Dean willingly let Fabinho drop the ball to himself, surely that gets looked at.

Ok I am following now. But I still have doubts in if in fact that is what happened. Assuming it did I still don't think it would be reviewable based on the fact he allowed it after clearly seeing the restart. It simply meant he was ok with it. I sometimes have throw ins that I want for a team and point that way. The other team takes the throw in and opponents accept it. I similarly accept it and get on with it. So the restart is correct.

I do admit though is is not clear cut on what the VAR protocol would require to happen.

 

[JamesL]

Ok I am following now. But I still have doubts in if in fact that is what happened. Assuming it did I still don't think it would be reviewable based on the fact he allowed it after clearly seeing the restart. It simply meant he was ok with it. I sometimes have throw ins that I want for a team and point that way. The other team takes the throw in and opponents accept it. I similarly accept it and get on with it. So the restart is correct.

I do admit though is is not clear cut on what the VAR protocol would require to happen.

That's a bit different to a restart not taken in accordance with procedure BUT I also don't think that's what's happened. Just saying, if it was, as suggested it moves the goalposts someshat in terms of can it can it not be looked at.
Truth is none of us know actually what happened, and we never will.

 

[PinnerPaul]

OK, I'm with you now.

We'd need to hear the comms really - if MD instructed a FK, or even blew his whistle, said nothing and then allowed the game to continue, I don't think there's a case. That incorrect decision to restart with a FK is not reviewable.

If he blew his whistle, instructed a drop ball and Fabinho ignored him, then yes - what we have in an "incorrectly carried out drop ball" that I think is maaaaaaaybe reviewable. But in that latter case, you'd have to ask why he'd allow the game to continue for so long knowing the restart was incorrect? Much more likely IMO that in the heat of the moment, he just made an incorrect decision on how to restart, and if that's true, I don't think there's any way it could be reviewed.

but you acknowledge that it WAS incorrect to blow his whistle in the first place as no contact between oppo players and no contact by him on the ball? That's the key here and the difference between Rusty's GK v Corner scenario.

 

[RustyRef]

Yes, but if a player infringes a restart then it would be reviewed.

For example, a player, taking a penalty, slips and touches the ball twice and the ball goes into the goal would be ruled out by VAR as the procedure for a penalty kick hasn't been followed. Or let's say ball was moving due to a gust of wind, var would review and order a retake.

If it was a dropped ball & the referee did not drop the ball the restart has not been taken correctly. That, I reckon, could be reviewed.

Think you are tying yourself up in knots here. If a player double touched at a corner that is the restart of play, so of course VAR could review it.

Here Mike Dean gave a DFK, which we all agree was incorrect. Once that DFK was taken play has restarted and therefore no one, referee or VAR, can correct that. He didn't give a dropped ball because he didn't drop the ball, and I stand by my argument that he has just totally incorrectly guessed there was a foul behind his back.

 

[JamesL]

Think you are tying yourself up in knots here. If a player double touched at a corner that is the restart of play, so of course VAR could review it.

Here Mike Dean gave a DFK, which we all agree was incorrect. Once that DFK was taken play has restarted and therefore no one, referee or VAR, can correct that. He didn't give a dropped ball because he didn't drop the ball, and I stand by my argument that he has just totally incorrectly guessed there was a foul behind his back.

No one knows what Mike Dean gave as he gave no signal.
I was just responding to a suggestion from another member. I dont think that's what's happened, just surmising around what VAR could/could not review. No knots here.

 

[RustyRef]

No one knows what Mike Dean gave as he gave no signal.

The fact that he didn't drop the ball, which is kind of a pretty key requirement of a dropped ball, I think we can only assume he gave a DFK. Do you really think that the most experienced referee in the Premier League wouldn't know that he has to drop the ball?

He's just messed up and incorrectly given a free kick, that isn't something that VAR will or can get involved with.

 

[JamesL]

The fact that he didn't drop the ball, which is kind of a pretty key requirement of a dropped ball, I think we can only assume he gave a DFK. Do you really think that the most experienced referee in the Premier League wouldn't know that he has to drop the ball?

He's just messed up and incorrectly given a free kick, that isn't something that VAR will or can get involved with.

I agree that is what most likely happened. As I say I was mainly just surmising about possible scenarios. And it wasn't me that introduced the idea initially.
It was most likely a DFK, why no one will ever know its all guesswork.

 

[Big Cat]

The fact that he didn't drop the ball, which is kind of a pretty key requirement of a dropped ball, I think we can only assume he gave a DFK. Do you really think that the most experienced referee in the Premier League wouldn't know that he has to drop the ball?

He's just messed up and incorrectly given a free kick, that isn't something that VAR will or can get involved with.

I think anyone can have a lapse of concentration, especially when fatigued and/or distracted. He knows the Law, of course he does
Let's face it, like the rest of us, EPL refs make plenty of blunders even with time to think about it
The only thing unusual about this incident, was the unusual nature of it

 

[one]

Do you really think that the most experienced referee in the Premier League wouldn't know that he has to drop the ball?

Since you opened this door... A bit of a double edged sword here with this argument. We all agree this was a pretty bad error and one that is totally unexpected from any experienced referee let alone a top flight one. It can only be explained by a 'brain fart' moment. That same moment can explain a plausible scenario of ordering a dropped ball but going along with a QFK because he interrupted the flow of the game.

I am not saying this is what happened, just saying it is plausible and understand @JamesL's argument, even though I don't agree with it.

 

[PinnerPaul]

The fact that he didn't drop the ball, which is kind of a pretty key requirement of a dropped ball, I think we can only assume he gave a DFK. Do you really think that the most experienced referee in the Premier League wouldn't know that he has to drop the ball?

He's just messed up and incorrectly given a free kick, that isn't something that VAR will or can get involved with.

The 'most experienced referee in the PL' wouldn't not drop the ball but he would give a free kick for something that happened behind him and that he didn't see???????

The non drop ball scenario is less far fetched when you consider that the ball ran to a WBA player after Mike Dean blew his whistle. The WBA player (foolishly) chucked it straight back to the Liverpool player who put the ball down and took the 'free kick'. It may have been, that MD thought, wrongly that the restart was the same as a drop ball to Liverpool player.

Why he would give a drop ball when the ball didn't hit him, who knows - its a major error either way and agree that we will never know his thought process.

 

[RustyRef]

The 'most experienced referee in the PL' wouldn't not drop the ball but he would give a free kick for something that happened behind him and that he didn't see???????

The non drop ball scenario is less far fetched when you consider that the ball ran to a WBA player after Mike Dean blew his whistle. The WBA player (foolishly) chucked it straight back to the Liverpool player who put the ball down and took the 'free kick'. It may have been, that MD thought, wrongly that the restart was the same as a drop ball to Liverpool player.

Why he would give a drop ball when the ball didn't hit him, who knows - its a major error either way and agree that we will never know his thought process.

We've all guessed on decisions at some point, would this be any different?