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That's the kinda viewpoint which explains the poor relationship between Referees and everyone else in the game. We're better than them. Which we're not. They just use the wrong terminology
Rare disagreement here, I'm not having that the pundits knowledge of the law is fine, except for using the wrong terminology!

If they really knew the LOTG, they wouldn't use the wrong terminology!

Classic example is defending SFP as 'not deliberate', 'didn't mean to hurt him' - yes you could say that is literally using the 'wrong' terminology' but it perfectly illustrates an ignorance of the law much more clearly.
 
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It's a really interesting debate ... so let's continue :)

I don't think the motivations at the top level are 'questionable', I think they are clear. Football in the upper echelons is a multi billion pound entertainment business and the powers that be quite understandably have a strong view as to how referees can best contribute to that business. I do however completely agree that the 'filtering down' of this approach makes life harder for officials below this level.

I strongly disagree with the generalisation that officiating at all levels of football is 'poor'. From my ten years of experience from youth football up to National League, I generally and regularly have seen the 'Third Team' being the best team on the FOP. It's bizarre to me that all others involved in the game seem to expect perfection from the match officials whilst being (more) understanding of the multiple mistakes made by other participants.

It frustrates me that, as you say, we all routinely ignore parts of the LOTG. I would love to wave a magic wand and make changes to the basic laws where current convention dictates that they are not applied. Just for starters, imagine if the '6 second rule' became '12 second' but all refs applied it. Or if taking throw ins from any point on the touch line closer to your own goal was legal rather than just 'accepted'. Or that all 'non involved' players needed to be in the other half at the taking of a penalty kick, so the whole messy concept of encroachment just disappeared. Then we could concentrate on consistent application of all laws without the 'get out' card that some were routinely ignored.

And with regard to your last paragraph, that's where I continue to get it but fervently disagree. I know you're passionate about 'doing the right thing' where you see the right thing as what you believe to be fair. But until or unless the view / training of all other referees comes in line with your concept of fairness, you run the real risk of being an outlier breeding inconsistency. Sticking with the OP, the training and communication around DOGSO is clear, easy to understand and consistent. It's not easy on the day for a ref to take that 'mental snapshot' at exactly the right time and there will always be borderline cases ... but at least there is a coherent framework within which to debate any particular incident .... that's surely better than defaulting to what 26,000 individual referees unilaterally decide is "fair"?
"It's bizarre to me that all others involved in the game seem to expect perfection from the match officials whilst being (more) understanding of the multiple mistakes made by other participants."

Perfect example of that was the QPR manager's programme notes after THAT offside decision v Sunderland. QPR then missed 3 of 4 penalties in the shoot out ( 2 went way over the bar) to exit the cup.

He said that the AR mistake was horrendous and shouldn't happen, but when addressing the poor shoot out performance said the players are human and make mistakes!

TBF in another part of the programme it took one of his own players to say that it was a mistake by the AR and that he is a human! and therefore that's what sometimes happens.
 
Rare disagreement here, I'm not having that the pundits knowledge of the law is fine, except for using the wrong terminology!

If they really knew the LOTG, they wouldn't use the wrong terminology!

Classic example is defending SFP as 'not deliberate', 'didn't mean to hurt him' - yes you could say that is literally using the 'wrong' terminology' but it perfectly illustrates an ignorance of the law much more clearly.
In general participant knowledge of the laws are atrocious.
Even down to the basics of a throw in.
Last night, FA Trophy, step 3 V Step 4 so. Theae guys are being paid a good packet and are semi professional, some. Are on loan from PL clubs and some have played higher.
Throw in taker, stood on the line. Lino, he's on the pitch. Yes but his feet are on or behind the line.
No he is on the pitch, part of his foot is on the pitch.
So it then had to explain it doesn't matter because it only requires a very minute part of the foot to be on the line and that is fine. The look of bewilderment.
I bet these pundits, with their expertise believe the same too.
I'm with PP - if they knew the law then they would use the wording appropriately.
 
In general participant knowledge of the laws are atrocious.
Even down to the basics of a throw in.
Last night, FA Trophy, step 3 V Step 4 so. Theae guys are being paid a good packet and are semi professional, some. Are on loan from PL clubs and some have played higher.
Throw in taker, stood on the line. Lino, he's on the pitch. Yes but his feet are on or behind the line.
No he is on the pitch, part of his foot is on the pitch.
So it then had to explain it doesn't matter because it only requires a very minute part of the foot to be on the line and that is fine. The look of bewilderment.
I bet these pundits, with their expertise believe the same too.
I'm with PP - if they knew the law then they would use the wording appropriately.
Funny I had that the other day when on the line for a college game.

Very one sided and this was the winning coach who said " and that's a foul throw" when one of his own team straddled the line with his feet.

Given the score and the fact he wasn't really aiming the remark at me, or maybe he was, I didn't 'engage'

I once had a club AR who seemed a bit miffed I wasn't going to allow him to call 'foul throws' - I stood on the line, toes on the pitch, and said "Is that a foul throw", "Oh yes" he replied "That's why I'm doing the foul throws" I said. :rolleyes:
 
Just to be clear on one point. I'm not advocating/expecting perfection from Match Officials. I'm saying that despite their skill and experience, even our most talented MO's have an impossible job getting anywhere near perfection, through no fault of their own. It's the Law Makers / Employers / Governance and resulting culture of the game... that makes for poor Officiating at all levels. Our job is ludicrous, therefore we can't do that well at it
 
strongly disagree with the generalisation that officiating at all levels of football is 'poor'. From my ten years of experience from youth football up to National League, I generally and regularly have seen the 'Third Team' being the best team on the FOP. It's bizarre to me that all others involved in the game seem to expect perfection from the match officials whilst being (more) understanding of the multiple mistakes made by other participants.
The post above ought to explain where I'm coming from. The Teams you work with are likely doing extremely well in an impossible job, but that doesn't add up to a game that's well officiated
And with regard to your last paragraph, that's where I continue to get it but fervently disagree. I know you're passionate about 'doing the right thing' where you see the right thing as what you believe to be fair. But until or unless the view / training of all other referees comes in line with your concept of fairness, you run the real risk of being an outlier breeding inconsistency. Sticking with the OP, the training and communication around DOGSO is clear, easy to understand and consistent. It's not easy on the day for a ref to take that 'mental snapshot' at exactly the right time and there will always be borderline cases ... but at least there is a coherent framework within which to debate any particular incident .... that's surely better than defaulting to what 26,000 individual referees unilaterally decide is "fair"?
Ultimately, I'm not really bothered about other Referee's games and whether I'm entirely consistent with them. I've always felt that this sheepish mentality of Refereeing according to someone else's agenda suffocates any chance of 'natural selection'; the sort of which we witnessed in last year's Champions League Final and the subsequent change in how the game is Refereed
I wouldn't get too hung up on the word 'fairness'. It's like the Match Control versus Application of Law debate
It is true however, that whilst I'm open to being influenced by 'respected others', I'm principled enough to retain my own style and way of doing things. I'm confident, that as long as I don't make a mess of a game, the observers will continue to lean towards 'above standard'. I'll consider their dev points and decide whether I can accommodate them in my game. If not, I'll discount them

Back to the OP
The point I'm making, is that the Referee's interpretation of OGSO is frequently not what the game expects. Which translates to what non-referees expect. And I'm inclined to agree with the latter, more often that not
Especially at higher skill levels, there's sometimes too much emphasis on 'distance from goal'
How 'central' the play is, ought to be more important than 'direction of play'
And there's no mention of probably the most important consideration, 'whether there's an aspect of USB to the offence'. If a defender, un-sportingly hauls a player down, that likely tells us that the defender considers it an OGSO. Yet Officials are restricted by what's in the shoddy book...
Although, I probably wouldn't be! 👉
 
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Back to the OP
The point I'm making, is that the Referee's interpretation of OGSO is frequently not what the game expects. Which translates to what non-referees expect. And I'm inclined to agree with the latter, more often that not
Especially at higher skill levels, there's sometimes too much emphasis on 'distance from goal'
How 'central' the play is, ought to be more important than 'direction of play'
And there's no mention of probably the most important consideration, 'whether there's an aspect of USB to the offence'. If a defender, un-sportingly hauls a player down, that likely tells us that the defender considers it an OGSO. Yet Officials are restricted by what's in the shoddy book...
Although, I probably wouldn't be! 👉
Expecting referees to not follow the LOTG is a bit tough. When the concept of DOGSO (originally I believe, the professional foul that was an aspect of SFP) started, it was much more a discretionary call. The criteria were added because Rs were reluctant to call, and they have been tweaked at times.

I think you are just wrong about over emphasis of distance from goal at high levels. High levels are where we see DOGSO given near the half way line. But the reality is that distance does matter, especially in terms of looking at defenders and ability to cover.

The direction of play language was tweaked relatively recently to be clear that it is the general direction of play, and to not discount an OGSO because someone is going sideways to get around a defender. Centrality is captured to a degree in both direction of play and in defenders covering--much more possibility of defenders covering when play is less central. And in actual application, centrality would be a very difficult metric and would be more likely to be used as an excuse to avoid giving a red card than a useful evaluative tool.

The point I do agree with is the nature of the foul should be relevant--the point of the rule is to get rid of cynical fouls (though some cynical fouls can be well disguised). And I think the reality is that the nature of the foul does influence referees in their evaluation. (I think it is not in the official criteria because, again, IFAB doesn't want referees to use "oh, that wasn't cynical" as an excuse to not send off players.) But I don't agree it is or should be the "most important consideration" as it would result in too many DOGSOs going unpunished.
 
That’s very much a top level outlook. At our level, and if you’re going 7-6, follow the LOTG to the letter. It’s what will get you promoted and it’s what you are paid to do. You will absolutely get marked down if you ignore the laws and tell the assessor you were concerned about their scholarship
It was the assessor that warned me of the loss of scholarship and the fact I knocked a star player out of the next playoff game for accumulated YCs.

That's why I don't accept certain games and I let my assigner knows this.

While my other assigner will give me games, knowing this, and let's me know to call it like I do. They agree the fragile oned need reality.
 
I agree with your assessment.

When I'm asked about giving cards, I prefer to say they earned the cards.
 
I agree with your assessment.

When I'm asked about giving cards, I prefer to say they earned the cards.
If a player has received enough YC to earn a suspension for an important game. then it definitely shouldn’t be the fault of that most recent referee. Player let down by himself AND his management
 
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