A&H

Aston Villa v Arsenal

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PinnerPaul

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The penalty call was unusual as apparently given on advice of AR who was 50 yards behind Kevin Friend who was no more than 10 yards from the incident.

Can (sort of) see that maybe AR had a better angle, but would be a difficult sell at a lower level I think?
 
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... I hope you're not expecting the referee to be able to see through two players to see the offending hands ;)

The angle from behind the goal is very good - shows the foul - shows the referee coming round but is (unfortunately) right behind the players at the exact moment of the foul

Would be a harder sell - agreed - especially given the second or 2 delay in blowing for it

 
Unless you have a comms kit, as AR you do not get involved in that! It is for the referee to be in a good position to see the offense and make a decision. Never an AR.
 
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From what I can remember of the clip on MotD (not visible in the above), the AR doesn't signal for it either - just on the comms - which personally I thought was the right way to do it, as clearly outside of his zone. Lets Mr Friend decide for himself, without screams that would not doubt be let loose if the flag had gone up.
 
AR definitely didn't give any visual signal, his movement and body language was that of the game playing on...

No doubt whatsoever Kevin Friend ultimately made the right decision, great to see a referee punish holding. The delay, probably caused by the official's thinking time & communication, seemed to caus the confusion. Although some players will always want to argue regardless of how blatantly obvious the decision is.
 
Jacko said:
Unless you have a comms kit, as AR you do not get involved in that! It is for the referee to be in a good position to see the offense and make a decision. Never an AR.
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Because heaven forbid the refereeing team work together as a team to make the correct decision!!

Your statement that 'the referee should be in the correct position' is correct, redundant and irrelevant. You're right he should be in the correct position. He wasn't. That's when the role of the Assistant Referee comes in. Y'know, to do things like, ASSIST.

If the referee was always in the right position he'd never need AR'S to do anything except ball in/out of play and offside. Maybe. He won't be because it's impossible to be. You can be in the 'right' position and still have your view blocked.

When the ref's view is blocked the AR should intervene. Even at a penalty. Although for those without comms, when the player has gone down in the box and you're not too sure why, that's when you should look over to the AR and that should be his signal that you're looking for help. As an AR if you think there's a chance the referee has seen it, then I wouldn't intervene in the PA. I'd only consider intervening without an invitation if it's, say, something completely out of the referee's field of view.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Because heaven forbid the refereeing team work together as a team to make the correct decision!!

Your statement that 'the referee should be in the correct position' is correct, redundant and irrelevant. You're right he should be in the correct position. He wasn't. That's when the role of the Assistant Referee comes in. Y'know, to do things like, ASSIST.

If the referee was always in the right position he'd never need AR'S to do anything except ball in/out of play and offside. Maybe. He won't be because it's impossible to be. You can be in the 'right' position and still have your view blocked.

When the ref's view is blocked the AR should intervene. Even at a penalty. Although for those without comms, when the player has gone down in the box and you're not too sure why, that's when you should look over to the AR and that should be his signal that you're looking for help. As an AR if you think there's a chance the referee has seen it, then I wouldn't intervene in the PA. I'd only consider intervening without an invitation if it's, say, something completely out of the referee's field of view.
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All correct, but in this case, referee would have to turn 180 degrees and look behind him at a guy 50 yards away - as I said in OP THAT's a difficult sell!
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Because heaven forbid the refereeing team work together as a team to make the correct decision!!

Your statement that 'the referee should be in the correct position' is correct, redundant and irrelevant. You're right he should be in the correct position. He wasn't. That's when the role of the Assistant Referee comes in. Y'know, to do things like, ASSIST.

If the referee was always in the right position he'd never need AR'S to do anything except ball in/out of play and offside. Maybe. He won't be because it's impossible to be. You can be in the 'right' position and still have your view blocked.

When the ref's view is blocked the AR should intervene. Even at a penalty. Although for those without comms, when the player has gone down in the box and you're not too sure why, that's when you should look over to the AR and that should be his signal that you're looking for help. As an AR if you think there's a chance the referee has seen it, then I wouldn't intervene in the PA. I'd only consider intervening without an invitation if it's, say, something completely out of the referee's field of view.
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I'm presuming that you've seen this incident? Not credible in a million years for a flag to come from either assistant.

Assist not insist remember. AR's are there for ball in out of play and offside. If you're giving more than 2 fouls a game on the line, either the referee's positioning is poor or you're a busy lino.
 
Jacko said:
AR's are there for ball in out of play and offside..
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Mate, do yourself a favour and pick up a LOTG that was printed after 1976. No point even engaging in this discussion further with you if you believe in that ridiculously outdated notion of what the AR is there for.

Everything about your post is just dangerously incorrect advice.
 
CapnBloodbeard said:
Mate, do yourself a favour and pick up a LOTG that was printed after 1976. No point even engaging in this discussion further with you if you believe in that ridiculously outdated notion of what the AR is there for.

Everything about your post is just dangerously incorrect advice.
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But the part about the credibility of an assistant giving a decision from 50 yards further away AND behind the ref IS valid!

CRs DO vary - I have been told UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES to give a penal decision any further from me than penalty spot from a level 4, so its not set in stone by any means.

If you do indeed view this incident it can definately be filed under 'Unusual" at the very least!
 
Supporting Jacko, even by what's in the laws now, (a) it seems well outside the AR's remit, and (b) how could be possibly be sure the extent of the contact (or whether the attacker didn't have hold of the defender's shirt)?, (c) how could be know his view was better than the referee's?

It's bad enough running a line with managers asking "Didn't you see that?" (and there have been plenty that I've thought were fouls from 50 yards away) without this sort of precedent!

AR duties are to indicate:
• when misconduct or any other incident occurs out of the view of the referee


• when offences have been committed whenever the assistant referees have a better view than the referee (this includes, in certain circumstances, offences committed in the penalty area)

The assistant referee must raise his flag when a foul or misconduct is committed in his immediate vicinity or out of the referee’s vision. In all other situations, he must wait and offer his opinion if it is required.


If this is the case, the assistant referee must report what he has seen and heard and which players are involved to the referee.


Before signalling for an offence, the assistant referee must determine that:


• the offence was out of the view of the referee or the referee’s view was obstructed


• the referee would not have applied the advantage if he had seen the offence
 
PinnerPaul said:
But the part about the credibility of an assistant giving a decision from 50 yards further away AND behind the ref IS valid!
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Well it would be if it were applicable in this case but I see no evidence of it. Firstly, I saw nothing to suggest the referee was acting on the advice of the AR - from what I saw, especially on the replays, it appears equally plausible that he was just giving himself time to consider his decision before blowing up for the offence.

Secondly, if he did take advice from one of the AR's it was surely the one that was ahead of him and to his right and who was positioned (as he should have been) in line with the second-last defender, giving him a relatively good angle to view the incident. Also, with a pitch width of 72 yards at Villa Park, he was probably around 40 yards from the incident rather than the 60 or so you seem to be implying.

Anyway, I'm more inclined towards the "giving himself time to think" option, given what I saw of the game.
 
Peter Grove said:
Well it would be if it were applicable in this case but I see no evidence of it. Firstly, I saw nothing to suggest the referee was acting on the advice of the AR - from what I saw, especially on the replays, it appears equally plausible that he was just giving himself time to consider his decision before blowing up for the offence.

Secondly, if he did take advice from one of the AR's it was surely the one that was ahead of him and to his right and who was positioned (as he should have been) in line with the second-last defender, giving him a relatively good angle to view the incident. Also, with a pitch width of 72 yards at Villa Park, he was probably around 40 yards from the incident rather than the 60 or so you seem to be implying.

Anyway, I'm more inclined towards the "giving himself time to think" option, given what I saw of the game.
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They said on MOTD that they had been told it was on the advice of the AR behind Kevin Friend AND he did take half a step back as if he wasn't (initially) going to give the pen.
 
PinnerPaul said:
They said on MOTD that they had been told it was on the advice of the AR behind Kevin Friend AND he did take half a step back as if he wasn't (initially) going to give the pen.
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Fair enough - I didn't watch MOTD so I wasn't aware of those claims. However I would tend to take them with a grain of salt. We have no way of knowing who "told" them and what the basis was for their information. And although he did take half a step back, I still think that could be seen as consistent with taking a moment to consider things. It would be interesting (if unlikely) to hear from Kevin Friend himself on what took place.

Sometimes I think it might be a good thing if referees were allowed to talk about such things a day or two after the game (and sometimes I think that would open up a can of worms best left unopened).
 
Peter Grove said:
Fair enough - I didn't watch MOTD so I wasn't aware of those claims. However I would tend to take them with a grain of salt. We have no way of knowing who "told" them and what the basis was for their information. And although he did take half a step back, I still think that could be seen as consistent with taking a moment to consider things. It would be interesting (if unlikely) to hear from Kevin Friend himself on what took place.

Sometimes I think it might be a good thing if referees were allowed to talk about such things a day or two after the game (and sometimes I think that would open up a can of worms best left unopened).
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Agree with that last paragraph 100% - IF this came from a reliable source far enough. But even then Shearer was still very patronising about it - "They reached the right decision in the end, just not sure how"

So you're right, sometimes when they spout absolute nonsense it would be good to hear from a referee to correct them but then on other occasions I think its best left as it is.
 
Well, that's by and large all I expect to do on the line. As Jacko said, if I got more than a couple of fouls in my "immediate vicinity" or where I'm sure the referee was unsighted, I'd think I'd been busy - and as for the idea of giving a penalty from fifty yards away at the far end, frankly not my job.
 
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