Assistant Coach entering FoP

[Davidf]

A couple of months ago, I had an assistant coach enter the field of play to question a decision i'd made. The incident is as described below. Red team were mid table, blue team were top of the league, with a large points gap between the two teams.

Red U12's (Home Team) vs Blue U12's (Away Team)
Blue Assistant Coach entered field of play to question referees decision over a free kick .
Score at time of incident - Red 6 - Blue 2
Time of Incident - 55 minutes into a 60 minute game (2 halves of 30 minutes)
Blue player and Red Goal keeper (out of area) were contesting a 50/50 ball , the blue player got there slightly before the red goal keeper, played the ball and went past the goal keeper, the goal keeper turned and "rugby tackled" the blue player. I blew the whistle to indicate a free kick to blue, as the blue player was stumbling forward , regained his feet, and shot on goal, the shot missed. There were also 2 other red players, running back to defend the goal.
I gave a free kick to blue as the offence happened, as the player was stumbling and going down.

The blue assistant coach questioned my decision from the far touch line, - shouting across the pitch (words to the effect of - " referee can you explain that decision" - more than once, ) as I was seeing if the red goal keeper was ok, as he was injured (he'd received a kick in the mouth due to the rugby tackle).
As i turned around, the assistant coach had entered the field of play (approximately half way between the touchline and the centre circle). I ran over to meet him close to the centre circle. He questioned the decision, and I explained that I gave the free kick because of the foul on his player. He asked if I should have waited a couple of seconds to see how play developed, which I agreed that in hindsight, maybe I should have done, but the foul had been committed, I saw the foul and blew for a free kick, his player was going down, I felt that there was no advantage to his team. He commented that his player had re-gained his feet and could have scored, - but that was after the whistle had been blown. He then left the field of play (with words to the effect of "that was a rubbish decision"). Play continued with a free kick.
The final score was Red 6 - Blue 2

After the final whistle, I shook hands with the players and officials from both teams, but when i went to shake hands with the assistant coach, he commented that i hadn't had a good game. I asked why, and at first he was reluctant to say, but on further pressing he mentioned the above decision. I re-iterated my version of events, he then went onto say that there were other decisions that i had got wrong during the game. When i asked him to say which ones, he could only mention one (which was a possible offside decision against blue, where in my opinion, the player was played onside by his no 6 player), and as he was appealing for offside, I shouted that no6 was playing the red player with the ball, onside - there were 2 other red players, not interfering with play, in an offside position). and nothing became of that phase of play, but red did score moments later from a separate phase of play. He said that there were others but he couldn't state them at that time. I shook his hand again, and walked off.

While walking the short walk home, (local game on a nice sunday morning) I reflected on the incident and decided i'd report it on the whole game system. I've received feedback from the home team's secretary this evening saying that the blue team's club have been fined by the FA, but they can't fine the assistant coach because he wasn't an assistant coach - he was a parent. He used to be a coach for the club but wasn't when the incident happened.

So, firstly if he was a parent, why was he stood with the coach, giving the team instructions, questioning the decisions, and generally acting like a coach/assistant coach with all the club gear on etc.

Secondly, if I referee the same team again, and he's on the coaches side of the pitch, am I within my rights to ask him to stand with the parents? what if he says, he's now an assistant?

The team/club have obviously denied he was an assistant when clearly he was, (i'm more than sure he introduced himself as an assistant) to avoid another fine.

In hindsight, I know I shouldn't have discussed the decision with him on the pitch - I should have asked him to leave the pitch and see me after the game.

Any thoughts/comments on the above?

 

[Hoosier Ref]

I recognize that things are a bit different over there compared to here in central USA (i.e. we always work with certified officials as AR). As far as I'm concerned, someone yelling repeatedly from 40 yards away wanting to question my call and entering the FOP to do so is a minimum of a "tell" and I have less tolerance these days. This is irresponsible behavior. He can go. Tough decision on the advantage and the timing of the call or wait and see is always tough near the goal. Since the GK did a "rugby tackle" was it in the PA? In which case he really has nothing to complain about. Either way, awarding advantage is entirely your call and there is no right or entitlement to the call. His conduct is not acceptable. I know where i work over here anyone in the technical area must be carded with US soccer in the competitive leagues. Recreational leagues don't work with player/coach passes.

 

[Mintyref]

Reads all good regarding on field decisions.
Don't get into discussions with anyone unless it's a brief explanation to a player when asked and if you're so inclined.
Not your place to question position of managers or coaches. Take what you're told at face value and treat them accordingly.
Not really sure what you had to report on WGS, but it must have had some effect.
If you get them again, forget the past, New game, clean slate.

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Well this is genuinely confusing. His player benefitted from the fact that you didn't wait, yet he was yelling at you over it??
You've had somebody coming onto the field to yell at you. I think this is when you need to be very firm - and let him know that if he so much as thinks about arguing again, he's off. I wouldn't have criticised you if you sent him from the vicinity at this point, not at all. The fact that he wasn't directly arguing but was questioning is about the only thing I could think of justifying him staying. But yeah....he's crossed a massive, massive line and generally speaking I'd argue he should be watching from the carpark.

If some idiot wants to say that you haven't had a good game, don't ask why. Ignore it, tell him you're not interested, or tell him that if he continues he's going to get reported.

If he wants to play the 'parent or manager? game', then what are you competition rules? Do the managers need to be named before the game? There are things you can use to your advantage. But ultimately, if he wants to say he's a manager but isn't, then it has zero impact on you - he's still walking if he crosses the line And whether or not he was fined for his indiscretion is not your concern. Get used to not worrying about the punishment. Trust me, you'll remain happier

 

[Ref Luke 2203]

I think your decision making was correct and sympathise with the situation with the spectator/coach.

I had an incident a few weeks ago where a spectator entered the FoP and was also questioning my decision. The foul occurred near the touchline. 2 players and the spectator surrounded me questioning it. Dealing with the 2 players is the easy part. I gave a brief explanation and then moved them on. The spectator I refused to acknowledge or explain myself to. The only thing I told him was to get off the pitch in which he replied 'its a public space, I can do what I want'. After threat of abandoning the game he left quickly but still remained very close to the touchline. I asked him to move back further in which he refused. He then said his not with the team and just a person passing by so I could do nothing. This was reported as misconduct but im not sure what the outcome was.

What could I of done to better handle the situation with a player? How much power do I really have in a situation like that? Any advise welcomed.

 

[Ciley Myrus]

Imo sorry if I sound harsh but your over thinking the whole situation
That game has now gone, and whatever will happen in the future, who knows
Each to own but engaging in this kind of communication on the park, with anyone, usually does not end well.

 

[QuaverRef]

I've had a parent on the pitch before questioning a decision. I point blank refused to enter a discussion and continuously told him to leave the FOP. After the game, he asked me the same question. I explained my version of events and then walked away. I couldn't care less whether he agreed with it or not (they never do), its the decision we take as referees and that's how it stands.

Your best bet is to never engage with them, you wont win it's as simple as that. One bad decision (or a decision they perceive to be bad) will be what they dwell on from then on and it means you've been awful and all sorts when in effect, you haven't, they just can't accept the decision.

The whole assistant/parent thing isn't your concern. Doesn't matter who they are, they shouldn't be on the pitch and regardless as to where they are stood (with the manager/technical area/side of the pitch etc) they can still give advice to players

 

[CapnBloodbeard]

I think your decision making was correct and sympathise with the situation with the spectator/coach.

I had an incident a few weeks ago where a spectator entered the FoP and was also questioning my decision. The foul occurred near the touchline. 2 players and the spectator surrounded me questioning it. Dealing with the 2 players is the easy part. I gave a brief explanation and then moved them on. The spectator I refused to acknowledge or explain myself to. The only thing I told him was to get off the pitch in which he replied 'its a public space, I can do what I want'. After threat of abandoning the game he left quickly but still remained very close to the touchline. I asked him to move back further in which he refused. He then said his not with the team and just a person passing by so I could do nothing. This was reported as misconduct but im not sure what the outcome was.

What could I of done to better handle the situation with a player? How much power do I really have in a situation like that? Any advise welcomed.

He's pulled the wool over your eyes. If he wasn't with a team, why did he care enough to come onto the field and argue?
Manager removes him or the game doesn't continue. If somebody has actually come onto the field to argue, then I think there's now a safety risk. He's already crossed a huge line, I wouldn't be confident that punching the ref or a player would be that much of a step-up to somebody like that.
Also, don't buy into that 'it's a public space' nonsense. It doesn't fly. In Australia, at least, it's also incorrect - because the organisation that hires a ground has control over the ground, making it a sort of private space.

I like that you didn't bother acknowledging the idiot.

 

[Davidf]

Hi All,
many thanks for your replies and comments

Hoosier Ref - no it wasn't in the penalty area, it was just a free kick. I ought have yellow carded the red goalkeeper for the rugby tackle, but I missed that due to running over to the assistant coach. The parents, near to where it happened, were more concerned about the goal keeper being injured (both sets of parents) than the decision. I expected the keeper to get up with a face full of blood and missing teeth, but after i'd spoken to the AC he'd re-gained his place in goal ready for the free kick.

Minty ref - thanks for the good advice which i'll take on board. I reported the incident under misconduct and the club were fined for failing to control their spectators (due to the club saying that the assistant coach wasn't an assistant coach - just a spectator). As above, when i greeted them prior to the game, I'm more than sure he said he was assistant coach. If I get them again and he's there, before kick off, i'll ask if he's a coach or parent. If he's a parent, he can stand at the other side of the pitch with the other parents and i won't start the game until he does.

Capnbloodbeard - again thanks for the advice. The managers have to be named but not assistant's. As you've put, I need to be firmer with incidents similar to this. (It's my first season - and first serious incident!).

Ciley Myrus - again thanks for the advice, and no it doesn't sound harsh. I probably am over thinking it, but due to the lack of games recently (due to the weather), I keep thinking if I made the right call with both the freekick and the assistant coach. Because it all happens so fast, you have to be ready for it all. I'm determined not be in that situation again.

Quaver Ref - I know what you are saying about parents, coach's, etc, giving advice, but he WAS an assistant coach (even though they've told the FA he was a parent), who should know better and he doesn't set a good example to the team that he's helping to coach. He certainly wasn't showing any respect to myself, his team, the other team, managers/coaches and to the parents of both team's. I reported it because whilst he wasn't aggressive or abusive, he was intimidating (quite a big bloke) and if it had been a younger referee, he could quite easily have intimidated him or manipulated the situation. Whilst I haven't stated it above, he was questioning most decisions that didn't go his way, and the ones that did go his way as well!!!.

The funny thing is, after i'd done the team handshakes and coin toss, the teams swapped ends, got ready for the kickoff, when he shouted over from the sidelines as to what rules we were playing. I thought this was a joke/trick question, so shouted back "football" he then says so which way can they kick it from the kick off?

Again, many thanks for all the replies.

 

[SLI39]

I don't think you handled this badly; maybe mentioning that you believed it was a head injury would have ended the advantage debate, and a caution (if warranted) might well have done the same. Sometimes a coach can escape a warning if he/she is the sort of person who responds without aggression. I have had a manager run across the whole pitch to berate a foul he thought I had missed; I asked him to leave, which he did, but I did end up reporting him for the outburst.

Where controversy could have arisen in your case is if you had awarded a direct free kick based on a coach's interfering with play, yet he had turned out to be just a misbehaving parent (outside agent).

 

[SurreySuperRef]

Personally speaking, I would have dismissed the assistant coach from the field of play. At the very least you should give him a warning to go back to pitch side if he wants to continue to be involved in this game.

You wouldn't expect this sort of nonsense from an under 12's coach, but sadly these things happen and it's up to you to deal with it.

You mentioned the keeper rugby tackled the forward, thst he stumbled and missed his shot. Sounds like solid grounds for a free kick and a caution for the keeper, if you deem it necessary.

Personally, I'm always open to dialogue with players if they're frustrated about a certain decision, provided they approach and communicate in a reasonable way. I'd extent this to coaches too, but there's a time and place to discuss any concerns, and that's not during the thick of the game in the middle of the park.

Make sure you communicate this to the assistant coach, and do so firmly with authority. Don't be afraid to dismiss the coach as well if you deem it necessary.

Even if you don't dismiss the coach, you can still write up an extraordinary discipline summary on the whole game system, and make sure you state: what happened, who was directly involved with that one incident (in this case the assistant coach), what was the results of this incident, how good of a view of the incident you had and what action you took. Also don't forget to add the time of incident in your report as well.

 

[Davidf]

Personally speaking, I would have dismissed the assistant coach from the field of play. At the very least you should give him a warning to go back to pitch side if he wants to continue to be involved in this game.

You wouldn't expect this sort of nonsense from an under 12's coach, but sadly these things happen and it's up to you to deal with it.

You mentioned the keeper rugby tackled the forward, thst he stumbled and missed his shot. Sounds like solid grounds for a free kick and a caution for the keeper, if you deem it necessary.

Personally, I'm always open to dialogue with players if they're frustrated about a certain decision, provided they approach and communicate in a reasonable way. I'd extent this to coaches too, but there's a time and place to discuss any concerns, and that's not during the thick of the game in the middle of the park.

Make sure you communicate this to the assistant coach, and do so firmly with authority. Don't be afraid to dismiss the coach as well if you deem it necessary.

Even if you don't dismiss the coach, you can still write up an extraordinary discipline summary on the whole game system, and make sure you state: what happened, who was directly involved with that one incident (in this case the assistant coach), what was the results of this incident, how good of a view of the incident you had and what action you took. Also don't forget to add the time of incident in your report as well.

Hi SurreySuperRef, - many thanks for the good advice, I did report it on WGS, the basis of what happened above formed the basis of my report. The players and parents weren't contesting my decision, and as i said above, i had every intention of booking the keeper after he had received some treatment, - until the assistant coach ran on, then after dealing with him ( in hindsight, i know i should have been firmer), i'd lost my train of thought, and continued with the freekick (both teams were ready, in position, awaiting me re-starting the game), and even then the opposition parents weren't asking for the keeper to be carded. It wasn't until after the game that I realised I should have booked him.

 

[JRef]

I think I would have awarded a direct free kick to the blue team and cautioned the red goalkeeper. I would have then took the assistant coach to one side and then asked him to politely leave the FOP and reported the event to your local FA. I'm not sure if that's the correct thing to do but that's what i would have personally done

 

[cwyeary]

A collision between two players with 5 minutes left in a 4 goal game involving 12 year olds and the coach is wondering why advantage wasn't played? Unreal.

 

[NorthLondonRef]

I didn't read the whole post of the exact incident but read enough about the assistant coach/parent and him offering you advice/analysing your performance and you engaging in this sort of conversation.

I could write an 3 million page book about all the little incidents I've had with parents, coaches, players etc that have no significance on anything. I found as I got more experienced on the muddy pitches in some deep dark places in the likes of Enfield, Edmonton (North London) that the less I engaged with anyone (apart from the players) in the youth leagues the better. Turn up, introduce myself to the secretary, keep myself to myself apart from a handshake with the coaches, ignore everything else, get the job done and go home.

When I first started I found everyone and their dog wanted to have an input into my performance.....when I got more experienced and looked and acted more confident whilst having the players on a piece of string, I wasn't questioned anymore. Strangely, when you just blank out and ignore "Dave the brickie" on the side of the pitch you won't make any friends and sometimes you will need to make a smart witty comment and essentially put someone in their place in front of their mates but they soon get the message and won't do it again.

Each to their own but I picked and chose who I gave my time to and I suspect you'll pick up very quickly who may or may not be trouble before the game. I had a radar in my brain and I could sense it sometimes before the game even started....learn the signals and what to look for, and figure out what works for you but remember you are doing your job. I'm a coach as well, so occasionally might come across someone who wants to discuss certain things and if it's done in the right manner both ways that's fine but there are some on the sideline.... parents and coaches who if you even look in their direction think it's an invitation to tell you you are wrong or whatever. I had a fat bloke once who wouldn't shut up. I had already been paid and he wouldn't stop talking. I offered him the whistle, told him I've been paid and if thinks he can do a better job to take the whistle and I'll go home. He soon went back into his hole.

It might not be the best advice and some might disagree but I wouldn't place too much important on these silly little incidents. Just get in, do your job and get out. If you feel someone is behaving respectfully and wants to have a decent chat that's fine. If you get any indication the conversation can or has the potential to go a certain way, it's best avoiding conversing with those individuals in the first place.

 

[lincs22]

Hi @Davidf - so many poits from your original post, I will try at extract the relevant points:

Blue player and Red Goal keeper (out of area) were contesting a 50/50 ball , the blue player got there slightly before the red goal keeper, played the ball and went past the goal keeper, the goal keeper turned and "rugby tackled" the blue player. I blew the whistle to indicate a free kick to blue, as the blue player was stumbling forward , regained his feet, and shot on goal, the shot missed. There were also 2 other red players, running back to defend the goal.
I gave a free kick to blue as the offence happened, as the player was stumbling and going down.

Nothing wrong in this decision - it is the referee's decision whether to apply advantage (and sometimes the observers at higher levels!!!), no body else.

As i turned around, the assistant coach had entered the field of play (approximately half way between the touchline and the centre circle). I ran over to meet him close to the centre circle. He questioned the decision, and I explained that I gave the free kick because of the foul on his player. He asked if I should have waited a couple of seconds to see how play developed, which I agreed that in hindsight, maybe I should have done, but the foul had been committed, I saw the foul and blew for a free kick, his player was going down, I felt that there was no advantage to his team. He commented that his player had re-gained his feet and could have scored, - but that was after the whistle had been blown. He then left the field of play (with words to the effect of "that was a rubbish decision").

First learning point - never discuss matters with people who come onto the FOP. They are there illegally and "in your house". Get them to leave the FOP, then if you are willing, speak to them off the FOP.

After the final whistle, I shook hands with the players and officials from both teams, but when i went to shake hands with the assistant coach, he commented that i hadn't had a good game. I asked why, and at first he was reluctant to say, but on further pressing he mentioned the above decision. I re-iterated my version of events, he then went onto say that there were other decisions that i had got wrong during the game. When i asked him to say which ones, he could only mention one (which was a possible offside decision against blue, where in my opinion, the player was played onside by his no 6 player), and as he was appealing for offside, I shouted that no6 was playing the red player with the ball, onside - there were 2 other red players, not interfering with play, in an offside position). and nothing became of that phase of play, but red did score moments later from a separate phase of play. He said that there were others but he couldn't state them at that time. I shook his hand again, and walked off.

Second learning point - no good will ever come from engaging directly after a match. If they want to discuss, the answer there questions, do not ask anything back. Once you have explained yourself, if they continue to disagreed "that is your opinion but I don't agree!. I have explained my position so thank you".

, but they can't fine the assistant coach because he wasn't an assistant coach - he was a parent. He used to be a coach for the club but wasn't when the incident happened.

So, firstly if he was a parent, why was he stood with the coach, giving the team instructions, questioning the decisions, and generally acting like a coach/assistant coach with all the club gear on etc.

Where was he standing. Under the RESPECT guidelines, only team officials are allowed pitchside. All parents should be standing behind lines / tape barriers. It is for the team to ensure only their authorised officials are pitchside. If, therefore, he was inside the rope - he is a team official and report them accordingly, outside then they are a spectator and a different reporting structure applies. If a spectator confronts you on the FOP - get the team officials to remove him from the FOP, don't engage you wont win! The officials should remove immediately, as if he stays and you report properly, the CFA will have a nice bonus!

Secondly, if I referee the same team again, and he's on the coaches side of the pitch, am I within my rights to ask him to stand with the parents? what if he says, he's now an assistant?

Every game is different, he may well be involved in the club. Note where he stands!

Hope this helps.

 

[Davidf]

Northlondonref - many thanks for the advice, i'm learning that very quickly

Lincs22 - point 2 - you;ve basically said what my local RA said when i asked for advice. This is what i'll be doing in the future,

Where was he standing. Under the RESPECT guidelines, only team officials are allowed pitchside. All parents should be standing behind lines / tape barriers. It is for the team to ensure only their authorised officials are pitchside. If, therefore, he was inside the rope - he is a team official and report them accordingly, outside then they are a spectator and a different reporting structure applies. If a spectator confronts you on the FOP - get the team officials to remove him from the FOP, don't engage you wont win! The officials should remove immediately, as if he stays and you report properly, the CFA will have a nice bonus!
- He was pitchside and before the game he introduced himself as an assistant coach ( i'm more than sure of that).
He was coaching the kids along with the manager, all through the game. Helped with the warm up, team talk at half time etc, and was wearing the club tracksuit. The parents were on the opposite side of the pitch behind the respect barrier. I reported it on WGS and the feedback from the red team's club secretary is that the blue team have told the FA that he was a parent and not a club official, so they have been fined (alot of money in my opinion) for failing to control their spectators.

 

[lincs22]

Northlondonref - many thanks for the advice, i'm learning that very quickly

Lincs22 - point 2 - you;ve basically said what my local RA said when i asked for advice. This is what i'll be doing in the future,

Where was he standing. Under the RESPECT guidelines, only team officials are allowed pitchside. All parents should be standing behind lines / tape barriers. It is for the team to ensure only their authorised officials are pitchside. If, therefore, he was inside the rope - he is a team official and report them accordingly, outside then they are a spectator and a different reporting structure applies. If a spectator confronts you on the FOP - get the team officials to remove him from the FOP, don't engage you wont win! The officials should remove immediately, as if he stays and you report properly, the CFA will have a nice bonus!
- He was pitchside and before the game he introduced himself as an assistant coach ( i'm more than sure of that).
He was coaching the kids along with the manager, all through the game. Helped with the warm up, team talk at half time etc, and was wearing the club tracksuit. The parents were on the opposite side of the pitch behind the respect barrier. I reported it on WGS and the feedback from the red team's club secretary is that the blue team have told the FA that he was a parent and not a club official, so they have been fined (alot of money in my opinion) for failing to control their spectators.

He was a team official for this match, even if the club deny he is associated with them. When doing something like this, include where he was during the game in your report. Makes it easier for the CFA to confirm the charge is correct.