The Ref Stop

Article in Telegraph about referees and RESPECT

Big Cat said:
I'm guessing the referee (allegedly) assaulted in the ****fosters game would have been Level 5 or better. I'd like to think that two or more rounds of promotion would reflect that referee's competence in terms of using the 'tools at his disposal'
I'd bet that many (if not the majority) of assaults, occur in combination with a player being cautioned or dismissed
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Correct assumption or two. He was actually (I believe) a third year Level Four so would have at least 7 years experience and three promotions under his belt. Can't comment on his compentency (having never worked with him) but that background should give him a good chance of having 'been there and done that'! And yes, the alleged assault came on the back of a dismissal for the same player
 
The Ref Stop
Russell Jones said:
Correct assumption or two. He was actually (I believe) a third year Level Four so would have at least 7 years experience and three promotions under his belt. Can't comment on his compentency (having never worked with him) but that background should give him a good chance of having 'been there and done that'! And yes, the alleged assault came on the back of a dismissal for the same player
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Appreciate the clarification. Being local to the incident, this confirms anecdotal talk I'd heard on the subject. Poor show for colleagues to blindly imply the ref didn't use 'tools at disposal'
 
Big Cat said:
Appreciate the clarification. Being local to the incident, this confirms anecdotal talk I'd heard on the subject. Poor show for colleagues to blindly imply the ref didn't use 'tools at disposal'
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Please quote the post where I made any mention that the referee in the article didn’t use the tools at his disposal?
 
Padfoot said:
Please quote the post where I made any mention that the referee in the article didn’t use the tools at his disposal?
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Padfoot said:
Maybe if referees used the tools they have, took a firmer stance on dissent/OFFINABUS and stopped finding excuses not to caution/dismiss players the problem would start to diminish?
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Strange how you knew who i was referring to
 
Padfoot said:
Maybe if referees used the tools they have, took a firmer stance on dissent/OFFINABUS and stopped finding excuses not to caution/dismiss players the problem would start to diminish?

.
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Big Cat said:
Strange how you knew who i was referring to
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As I said, please quote the post where I mention the referee in the article........not a post where I pose a general, deliberately non specific question about referees in general.

Of course, you could simply just apologise for making a spurious claim about what was posted, rather than keep digging yourself deeper into the hole of blind hatred?
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Seen far better experienced level 7's than over promoted inexperienced level 5's!!
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In your opinion, but you aren't a qualified observer so don't necessarily know what to look for. No level 5 has been "over promoted" as they will have had at least 6 observations to get to that level and all with have needed to be at the standard expected for the next level.
 
Seen a few level 5's struggle with tasty OA games! One in particular was one of the County FA starlets, I wouldn't let him near an OA game after watching him a few times....he may well ace the theory, look and talk the talk, I can only judge on what I saw..... Just my 36 years of watching OA football, but hey, what do I know!!! :(
 
Padfoot said:
As I said, please quote the post where I mention the referee in the article........not a post where I pose a general, deliberately non specific question about referees in general.

Of course, you could simply just apologise for making a spurious claim about what was posted, rather than keep digging yourself deeper into the hole of blind hatred?
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You came onto a topic specifically talking about a supply league referee being assaulted, as that is the main point of the article, and said that if referees used to tools available to them then perhaps the problem would go away. I shouldn't need to tell you that one of our refereeing colleagues was assaulted for doing his job, as he sent a player off who then allegedly decked him, so your posts are inappropriate and at best belong on a different topic.

I've been overseas for a couple of weeks so didn't even know about the latest assault, but the referee involved is someone I have worked with and certainly isn't an inexperienced level 4, nor is he afraid to shirk the big decisions.
 
Sheffields Finest said:
Seen a few level 5's struggle with tasty OA games! One in particular was one of the County FA starlets, I wouldn't let him near an OA game after watching him a few times....he may well ace the theory, look and talk the talk, I can only judge on what I saw..... Just my 36 years of watching OA football, but hey, what do I know!!! :(
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Put your money where your mouth is, as the saying goes. I challenged you before many moons ago when you said that promotion was pointless to go for it and see how you got on, obviously you can't do that now you have retired. But nothing to stop you becoming a mentor or coach so that you are then qualified to say whether a referee is up to the job or not, and more importantly help them to improve if they are struggling.
 
RustyRef said:
Put your money where your mouth is, as the saying goes. I challenged you before many moons ago when you said that promotion was pointless to go for it and see how you got on, obviously you can't do that now you have retired. But nothing to stop you becoming a mentor or coach so that you are then qualified to say whether a referee is up to the job or not, and more importantly help them to improve if they are struggling.
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Sadly my day job continually precludes me from any local commitments 6 days a week as I'm virtually constantly away on business travelling nationally. That said, 6 years and 9 months from today my circumstances may change where I may take a semi or permanent step back from my business. I've helped many referees away from here but I don't think I'd like that as a full / part time commitment if I'm being honest.
 
I am with Padfoot to a large extent. We have the tools to deal with it, but their application requires guts, experience and bravery. Inexperienced referees have no chance of dealing with 22 morons intent on intimidation and trouble, and that's before we get to the managers!!
My belief is that the system collapses with the lack of mentoring for new referees. Raise a levy of the Premier League fat cats and provide new referees with paid mentors for their first five games.
 
RustyRef said:
In your opinion, but you aren't a qualified observer so don't necessarily know what to look for. No level 5 has been "over promoted" as they will have had at least 6 observations to get to that level and all with have needed to be at the standard expected for the next level.
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I am a qualified observer and I will happily say that I have seen level 6, 5, 4, etc referees who have been promoted before they are ready......and you know damn well how easy it is for the observation system to be manipulated to keep certain candidates away from certain observers or difficult fixtures, especially at county level.

RustyRef said:
You came onto a topic specifically talking about a supply league referee being assaulted, as that is the main point of the article, and said that if referees used to tools available to them then perhaps the problem would go away. I shouldn't need to tell you that one of our refereeing colleagues was assaulted for doing his job, as he sent a player off who then allegedly decked him, so your posts are inappropriate and at best belong on a different topic.

I've been overseas for a couple of weeks so didn't even know about the latest assault, but the referee involved is someone I have worked with and certainly isn't an inexperienced level 4, nor is he afraid to shirk the big decisions.
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And again, not once have I levelled any criticism at the referee in the article.....just because he’s a mate of yours doesn’t mean you can invent or pretend that something was posted that actually wasn’t.

The article, and indeed the OP, deals with ‘abuse’ and that is what my comment was aimed at, in a general non specific way......as you well know.
Instead, once again, you try to turn this into a Padfoot bashing session........
 
HoofItYouDonkey said:
I am with Padfoot to a large extent. We have the tools to deal with it, but their application requires guts, experience and bravery. Inexperienced referees have no chance of dealing with 22 morons intent on intimidation and trouble, and that's before we get to the managers!!
My belief is that the system collapses with the lack of mentoring for new referees. Raise a levy of the Premier League fat cats and provide new referees with paid mentors for their first five games.
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Couple of questions

Where are these paid mentors going to come from?
Are they going to be qualified current or former referees? If they are current referees, then they are probably refereeing a game already (or any of the things I've listed against former referees). If they are former referees, then they may be writing up a report from a game they've watched or running a course or prepping to deliver at a development event at a local RA OR... maybe they've had enough of the abuse too and don't want to put themselves in the firing line again.

How much are you going to pay them?
Contributory League Referee Observers get the equivalent of around £5 per hour, Supply League Referee Observers get around £4 per hour. County level observers get around £4 an hour. All this before travel costs.

People who work in the development of referees don't do it for the money. We just don't have much time spare to mentor as well as do what HAS to be done.
 
Brian Hamilton said:
Couple of questions

Where are these paid mentors going to come from?
Are they going to be qualified current or former referees? If they are current referees, then they are probably refereeing a game already (or any of the things I've listed against former referees). If they are former referees, then they may be writing up a report from a game they've watched or running a course or prepping to deliver at a development event at a local RA OR... maybe they've had enough of the abuse too and don't want to put themselves in the firing line again.

How much are you going to pay them?
Contributory League Referee Observers get the equivalent of around £5 per hour, Supply League Referee Observers get around £4 per hour. County level observers get around £4 an hour. All this before travel costs.

People who work in the development of referees don't do it for the money. We just don't have much time spare to mentor as well as do what HAS to be done.
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It's not a quick solution. I would like to mentor inexperienced referees when I hang up my whistle, so it will take many years. Ultimately it's about finance. Grassroots football is starved financially while the PL pays footballers £250K/week.
 
Padfoot said:
Not blaming them for the abuse......but they have tools to deal with it......if they choose not to use them.....?
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I don't see how else to read this. Enlighten us and complete those ..... placeholders you have put there so that we don't misinterpret your intentions in this regard.
 
@Padfoot has influenced my game positively. Sometimes blunt advice can be helpful and i've benefited from dealing with verbals more promptly and effectively.
But that same message gets lost on me when used in the context of this thread. It's like there's only one of us who can deal with abuse before it gets that far
 
I had a player put his head on mine 3 weeks ago after giving my 3rd red card of the game against his team. 7 yellows this weekend in 2 matches and removed the coach. I have the skills required to control games and people who are out of line just because of my football experience and life experience. There will always be the odd idiot who will be way out of line regardless of the referee. PL referees have been pushed over in the past and they're the best in the country!
 
OK here we go. Switch to another channel if not interested.

Start rant

Apart from the cases where abuse happens even after the 'tools' available to referees are used correctly, there will always be referees who have not learnt how to use the tools properly yet. Not everyone was borne a good referee but everyone is welcome to become a referee and learn along the way. There are some new referees here who are going through the experience now. But for the experienced ones, take yourself back to your first season and the very first game that was a 'I don't want to be here' game. How would you have felt if after your game a mentor or a senior referee came to you and said "if you had used your cards properly then....". Even experienced referees feel entrapped sometimes and end up having a bad day. Referee abuse is not acceptable no ifs no buts. New referee, experience referee, card happy referee, those who bottle it...
When talking about referee abuse don't even mentioned what "if you had done... ". If you want to talk about it in a game and player management context at a different time then that is a different story. Referees being abused need support not someone telling them if you had done this and that you wouldn't have been abused.

I have used this extreme example in the past. Its like telling if women wore more conservative clothes there would be less rape. You cant interpret it any other way but to call it victim blaming. My view anyway.

Rant over.
 
Padfoot said:
I am a qualified observer and I will happily say that I have seen level 6, 5, 4, etc referees who have been promoted before they are ready......and you know damn well how easy it is for the observation system to be manipulated to keep certain candidates away from certain observers or difficult fixtures, especially at county level.
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To get to level 5, you only need 6 observations. Only 1 of my 6 observations to get from 7-5 (over 2 seasons) was considered challenging, the rest were actually straightforward games.

I decided to take 1 promotion season at L5, before hitting the 5-4 path next year and its the best thing i could have done. I've had some games this season that have taught me a lot and will I believe help me as I look to go for promotion next season.

Part of the issue is that many county FA's are happy to push (especially young) referees up the promotion ladder very quickly. I know of referees that do a double jump 7-5 one promotion season, then are on the 5-4 path the following. I'd personally make it mandatory to have to stay at L5 for 1 Promotion year, to help consolidate your learning and get a wider range of experiences.
 
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