ARS V MANU but not limited too.

[socal lurker]

When a ball is kicked long to you as a striker and its going over your head how do you get to the ball? You cant turn and run as you will lose site of the ball. Your body will be close to the defenders and you will back in. The defender will lean in to you too. Thats not me thinking I've a player, thats just football. You cant only go forwards when your back is to goal. You will naturally lean backwards towards the defender.

What is changing is the distance and the force used and it is dangerous

I mostly agree, but it doesn't have to be dangerous to be a foul. I don't think there is (usually*) a problem if the attacker makes contact with the defender, but the attacker can't move the defender to create space. That, IMO, would be a careless foul and nothing more.
_____
*I say usually because, depending on other factors, it could be an impeding offense.

 

[Ben448844]

I mostly agree, but it doesn't have to be dangerous to be a foul. I don't think there is (usually*) a problem if the attacker makes contact with the defender, but the attacker can't move the defender to create space. That, IMO, would be a careless foul and nothing more.
_____
*I say usually because, depending on other factors, it could be an impeding offense.

I agree but almost all contact between a striker and a defender is when your back is to goal. When defenders shield the ball out of play they back in to the attacker to stop them getting around them. Every goal kick or defensive free kick thats kicked long will have every player in the attacking half marked closely, which means the attacker will back in. If you don't you will just fall over when there's contact from the defender. You certainly won't win the header. You have to back in to a certain degree but the key difference is that you're doing it from very close quarters with the defender so it isn't dangerous. You're also upright as you're trying to make yourself big, as opposed to what Kane etc do when they run from a distance and arch themselves which is very dangerous.

 

[Ben448844]

I struggle to think of many scenarios where "backing in" isn't a foul.
Every player is entitled to their space on the field of play. There are situations where players are "battling" for the same space and law allows for this, but imo most situations where a player moves into someone backwards really fits into definition of careless foul at least unless the ball is within playing distance (perhaps an explanation why players think waiting until the last is okay)
Whilst as a player, and thinking like a player you might think it is okay, from a refereeing and law point of view it fits nicely into a law 12 offence, call it what you want, charge, push, impede progress with contact, you can't challenge for the ball with your back (in most cases.)

Almost all backing in doesn't result in a foul. The attacker is going backwards for most high balls or is shielding the ball with their body from a defender. Its impossible to do this effectively without backing in to an extent, theres usually a 6'5 defender an inch behind you. If you stand still you're going to lose the header and get hurt.

If you just run back into someone then clearly thats a foul, but that is actually a rare event because there's so little space between attackers and defenders during a game.

 

[JamesL]

Almost all backing in doesn't result in a foul. The attacker is going backwards for most high balls or is shielding the ball with their body from a defender. Its impossible to do this effectively without backing in to an extent, theres usually a 6'5 defender an inch behind you. If you stand still you're going to lose the header and get hurt.

If you just run back into someone then clearly thats a foul, but that is actually a rare event because there's so little space between attackers and defenders during a game.

We obviously have different vision of what backing in is.
I covered what you are suggesting in my original post, if players are battling for the ball thats within playing distance or the same space, we'll that's football and what I call normal football contact.
As socal lurker says, you can't force your way into someone else's space, players lean on each other, that's not backing in. If you run backwards into someone who is stood still well that's careless because they were already stood there and you need to take care not to do that.

 

[Ben448844]

We obviously have different vision of what backing in is.
I covered what you are suggesting in my original post, if players are battling for the ball thats within playing distance or the same space, we'll that's football and what I call normal football contact.
As socal lurker says, you can't force your way into someone else's space, players lean on each other, that's not backing in. If you run backwards into someone who is stood still well that's careless because they were already stood there and you need to take care not to do that.

I covered that too. We are agreeing with each other regarding "battling" for the ball. I disagree where you say that most situations where someone moves backwards into another player is a foul. That just isn't the case.

 

[one]

Think of a non-foul backing in as a fair charge. You make 'gentle contact' with the opponent while their feet are still on the ground and you continue applying the pressure. It makes no difference if this is done with the front of you body or the back.

 

[GraemeS]

I always look at the momentum being the reason for a charging foul. If two players are stood next to each other and one tries to lean into the other's space, that's football. If the same players starts from 10m away and builds up momentum in order to use that force to push the opponent out of the space they want, that's a charge.

However, to bring it back to the discussion in question, the issue we have here is that for a high ball, players shouldn't be challenging for a space on the ground, they should be challenging for access to a point 2m+ above the ground. And similarly to the above where if a player is about to attempt a charge but another players steps across them to block then that's the foul, I don't feel like a defender has the right to block the access to the point of challenge. And that's where this crouching/dunking in comes - it's not an attempt to claim the spot where the ball will be, it's an attempt to deny your opponent safe access to that spot.

 

[socal lurker]

I always look at the momentum being the reason for a charging foul. If two players are stood next to each other and one tries to lean into the other's space, that's football. If the same players starts from 10m away and builds up momentum in order to use that force to push the opponent out of the space they want, that's a charge.

However, to bring it back to the discussion in question, the issue we have here is that for a high ball, players shouldn't be challenging for a space on the ground, they should be challenging for access to a point 2m+ above the ground. And similarly to the above where if a player is about to attempt a charge but another players steps across them to block then that's the foul, I don't feel like a defender has the right to block the access to the point of challenge. And that's where this crouching/dunking in comes - it's not an attempt to claim the spot where the ball will be, it's an attempt to deny your opponent safe access to that spot.

I'm going to nitpick about language a bit here (I don't think we're disagreeing about substance). Players standing or running side by size within playing distance if the ball battling for space is a legal charge. The windup you reference is what transforms the charge into a foul.

(I am amazed sometimes at folks who think anything done with the shoulder is legal. I was doing a 16U game where a defender lined up an attacker from 10 yards away, dropped his shoulder, and plowed him. Half his team's touchline was outraged that I called the PK. One of my ARs told me at half time that a dad yelled something like, "Yeah, whatever, that's just an AYSO* foul." My AR said he turned around and said, "no, that's a foul in the World Cup.")

_______
*AYSO is the American Youth Soccer Organization.