The Ref Stop

AR involvement in KMI's

Big Cat

Big Cat

RefChat Addict
Level 4 Referee
Been assisting quite a bit of late
Had perhaps 4 KMIs which i'm certain the referee has got wrong. Focusing on 3 penalty shouts, two were in the opposing PA and the other on the far side of my PA. The two at the other end, i considered them outside of my jurisdiction and the for the one which did lie within my domain, the ref emphatically bellowed out 'no' from close range, cutting the grass in the process.
In all cases, the players were on my case and two of the incidents resulted in a dismissal from the TA
I'm assuming there's not a lot an AR can do in such cases
 
The Ref Stop
the catch all answer is yes, there's not a lot you can do.

as AR in your position i'd only ever get involved in cases of mistaken identity or acts of violent conduct off the ball.

an example from a recent game...corner in the opposite half of play, looks like an obvious push attacker on defender who then scores. benches up in arms, i ask them to ask the ref at HT, he explains what he saw and he's backed up by video! what you see from your angle as obvious may not be correct!
 
1) Incidents look different from different angles
2) As we see with replays, positive certainty of an offence sometimes needs a different angle
3) I'm coming across demoted level 5's who are too old to keep up with play
4) it would be very irregular and unwanted for an assistant to get involved with the opposite PA
5) The referee in the most pertinent foul (my PA) was looking down the barrel of the gun whilst i was side on and saw a forcible push in the back. Yet i was shut out by the referee's exuberant 'no'
Like i say, two of these incidents caused a loss of control; and i could see exactly why, yet the players held me partly responsible for two of them
 
Only had 5 or 6 AR appointments so I'm speaking as a complete novice with no expertise or experience and I'm well aware that I may be wrong and my opinion may change in the future. But for the matches I've been an AR, 2 of the refs specifically said that they didn't want us to get involved with anything. Even throw ins he wanted us to give him eye contact before flagging and he'd direct us.

Now I get that some refs will have had bad experiences with over exuberant ARs and compelte novices like me who don't know what they're doing and are flagging for everything like they're trusted PL ARs but for me, by far and away the best refs were those that trusted you and advised communication but allowed you to have your own autonomy for decisions in an area which he described before the game as being "yours". These refs give you confidence and they also allow you to get together as a team and talk through incidents. I found that these were the older refs I've had, the younger ones basically wanted you to be an extension of them. It lead to situations where clear fouls in front of your nose werent given because the ref had a bad view and myself not flagging whilst the players and benches went mad and it was all so avoidable.

In my very limited AR experiences, those refs who trust their ARs and allow them to be able to get involved in the decision making process in their area are the best. Sample size is very small though!
 
Any player who is holding you partly responsible for decisions in the other penalty area is just clueless when it comes to the role of the AR.

With the one in 'your' area, generally speaking it's not credible for you to be coming in when play is on the far side of the area, even though, as you point out, your angle may well be better than that of the referee. For you to come in on that decision then (for me) three things need to have happened

1) The pre match briefing needs to have left the door open for you to do so in this instance
2) You have to be 100% certain
3) The referee needs to be looking at you for help

Hopefully your experiences with these referees are just reinforcing your desire to get promoted so that you will either a) be in the middle for these games yourself! or b) you'll be assisting a different kind of referee :)
 
Russell Jones said:
Any player who is holding you partly responsible for decisions in the other penalty area is just clueless when it comes to the role of the AR.

With the one in 'your' area, generally speaking it's not credible for you to be coming in when play is on the far side of the area, even though, as you point out, your angle may well be better than that of the referee. For you to come in on that decision then (for me) three things need to have happened

1) The pre match briefing needs to have left the door open for you to do so in this instance
2) You have to be 100% certain
3) The referee needs to be looking at you for help

Hopefully your experiences with these referees are just reinforcing your desire to get promoted so that you will either a) be in the middle for these games yourself! or b) you'll be assisting a different kind of referee :)
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Thanks Russell. To my credit and despite my inexperience, there was no chance that of me raising my flag. It's just a peculiar powerless experience.
Players (and football in general) have no understanding of the relationship between officials. Ironically, it's their dissenting and confrontational behaviour which governs the dynamics of how the team works
 
Ben448844 said:
Only had 5 or 6 AR appointments so I'm speaking as a complete novice with no expertise or experience and I'm well aware that I may be wrong and my opinion may change in the future. But for the matches I've been an AR, 2 of the refs specifically said that they didn't want us to get involved with anything. Even throw ins he wanted us to give him eye contact before flagging and he'd direct us.

Now I get that some refs will have had bad experiences with over exuberant ARs and compelte novices like me who don't know what they're doing and are flagging for everything like they're trusted PL ARs but for me, by far and away the best refs were those that trusted you and advised communication but allowed you to have your own autonomy for decisions in an area which he described before the game as being "yours". These refs give you confidence and they also allow you to get together as a team and talk through incidents. I found that these were the older refs I've had, the younger ones basically wanted you to be an extension of them. It lead to situations where clear fouls in front of your nose werent given because the ref had a bad view and myself not flagging whilst the players and benches went mad and it was all so avoidable.

In my very limited AR experiences, those refs who trust their ARs and allow them to be able to get involved in the decision making process in their area are the best. Sample size is very small though!
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Broadly agree. I think I've refereed four games with NARs
They are Qualified Referees so I expect them to get the basics of offside. I also want them to take the lead with ball in/out of play. I have no time for discreet pointing; if the NAR is unsure who the ball came off last, I just expect a delayed flag which passes the decision back to me
Anything less than this sort of guidance, is disrespectful to a colleague. This is roughly what I'm expecting when on the line
 
Big Cat said:
I'm assuming there's not a lot an AR can do in such cases
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In the match, no. Post-match, maybe.

I personally always welcome feedback from my A/R (when I get them), and so far, most referees I've lined for will ask for feedback. That's the time to put the point across, particularly in the privacy of the changing room. They might listen, they might not, but that's where it is probably best to do.

Ben448844 said:
In my very limited AR experiences, those refs who trust their ARs and allow them to be able to get involved in the decision making process in their area are the best.
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Agreed. There is nothing more annoying on the line than being with a referee that is relegating you to a club linesman really as I could be using my time to referee elsewhere. The best are ones that like you being active and partaking in the game. Even better are the ones that communicate and delegate with you.

It can go too far that way though, I once lined for a referee who left it entirely up to us for ball in/out etc, which became a nightmare as he didn't help us out when we missed a call due to checking the offside line, deflection or whatever.
 
Big Cat said:
Thanks Russell. To my credit and despite my inexperience, there was no chance that of me raising my flag. It's just a peculiar powerless experience.
Players (and football in general) have no understanding of the relationship between officials. Ironically, it's their dissenting and confrontational behaviour which governs the dynamics of how the team works
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This is true. I reckon I played in at least 100 games with appointed ARs, probably more and I had no idea about how much they communicated. I knew the ARs talked to the players but I didn't think they talked to the ref apart from when there was a deliberation over an offside etc. After the game the ARs very rarely chatted with the players, it was always the ref who came to talk. Thinking back,you just don't even notice the ARs apart from if you think they've cost you points lol.
 
One thing I will say is that the impact of the referee over the AR is huge. Those that used me as a glorified CAR left me wondering why I bothered and I certainly didn't really enjoy the experience. Those that us3d you as a valued team member made the day enjoyable and I watched and learnt from them alot more because they treated ARs in the same way as I would/will so I felt I was learning from them
 
I think there must be a huge difference between using NARs only occasionally and using them routinely--and even more so the difference between being an AR frequently and rarely. I honestly don't know if I would stick with reffing if I did most of my games solo/CARs--a lot of what I enjoy is the teamwork with colleagues. What you can ask someone experienced as an AR to do is different from someone who doesn't do it a lot--even if that person has experience as a referee.

I wonder if, on the two plays at @Big Cat 's end if an R more used to working with ARs than working on his own would have looked to see what his AR saw--especially the one that was close. Had he looked before yelling "no" there might have been a different result. but once he yells "no," there really isn't anything the AR can do.
 
socal lurker said:
if an R more used to working with ARs than working on his own
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Only one Penalty down my end. All the R's work with NAR's every week
In my somewhat limited time reffing and watching County/Supply League games, I'm seeing an inverse relationship between experience/performance! Those who've been in the game for 20+ years are the ones I'm not taken by (trend not a rule)
 
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Big Cat said:
Only one Penalty down my end. All the R's work with NAR's every week
In my somewhat limited time reffing (and watching County/Supply League games), I'm seeing an inverse relationship between experience/performance! Those who've been in the game for 20+ years are the ones I'm not taken by (trend not a rule)
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Snarky response: The saying that you can't teach an old dog new tricks came about for a reason . . . some of those old timers are probably the same ones that still call OS every time the ball heads in the general direction of an OSP player. . . .

Not so snarky response: If they typically get ARs who don't AR much, it could be a reflection on how much value they have learned to expect from their ARs. Being a good AR is a different skill set than being a good R. And good communication between R and AR is a learned skill. I find that when I do games with poor ARs (younger age groups, typically), I get into bad habits about using my ARs when I have good ones.

(I always have ARs. AYSO uses volunteer coaches and referees. So my ARs range from mom-who-took-the-class-because-no-other-parent-would-volunteer to those who have been doing it for 10 years because they enjoy doing it and giving back to the game and have stayed with it even after their kids left the program. One of the reasons I like doing the 19Us is the fun of having a good team of officials that works together and has fun managing the game as a team.)
 
Credibility.

As someone else said, other than the most severe error of all time, just need to grin and bear it in the other box.
Your pen box but the other side of park, rare, again,
 
Lets assume we are talking about NARs and ones with decent foul recognition ability you can trust. I'd like to put @Big Cat in that category ;)

Its a lot easier with comms. An AR can quickly say "I think that's a foul", or as we saw in a recent A-League comms "foul if you want it". The refs makes a decision and everyone knows its the ref's decision.

Fouls are subjective. Without comms. Lets say a likely foul happens 15 yards away from ref but 40 yards from AR. They both have good vision of this. It is imperative that any decision on this is seen to be coming from the ref. Every ref who doesn't give a debatable (ITOOTR) foul also knows there is a chance it may have been a foul. The referee MUST make eye contact with AR before making a decision. I usually ask for a nod or shake of the head from my AR in pre-match instructions. As an AR, if the referee doesn't look at me, flagging will cause more problems than it solves for both of us and the game, so I keep it down even if i think its a foul. For the ref here he is not making full use of all tools/information available to him and its just poor refereeing. Discrete signals between R and AR are integral parts of teamwork with or without the use of comms.

If the referee's vision is blocked again discrete signals is better than flagging but for behind play incidents flagging is best.

In case of OP, it seems to me the ref has put selling the decision at a higher priority than getting the decision right. Delaying the decision by looking at the AR first may make it a little harder to sell but will increase you chances of getting it right.
 
Last season I ARed with a reasonably good referee for the first time. There was a throw in near me with R also looking when it was being taken. The player first wanted to throw the ball square but changed his mind, turned and threw the ball to a player near the touchline further up. The action looked iffy. I flagged and he immediately flagged me down. The TI didn't have much impact in the game (it was from the player's own half. I put my flag down and on we went.

At half time, he apologised for waving me down. He thought the action didn't look too goo but it was fine. I said I thought the action was fine too but did you also see that as he turned his right foot was now completely over the line. He said "oh" and apologised again. We both had a good lough though.

Mistrust is like kryptonite to teamwork.
 
I work it NARs constantly. It is actually the standard at all levels. Now not all officials have equal experience/skills. I've been fortunate to work with high level referees as both an AR and as the CR. The standard pregame/operation... which admittedly is abbreviated at times as we have worked together often.

Priority for ARs - offsides (I have no chance at seeing this and we must be right. Counting on you), then boundaries, then fouls in your quadrant (area close to you). Please try to match what I'm allowing and what I'm calling. Help me watch behind my back for extracurriculars and for late challenges I may have missed. You are referees and know the game. If it's in your quadrant and it is something consistent with what I've been calling flag it. If I'm screened and you think I would have called it.. flag it. If it's in my area let me have first crack at it. If I look over at you during the run of play following a challenge, it means I'm not sure so let me know what you think. If it is in the PA, let's me positive. Lets avoid "maybe" penalties but if it's a PK it's a PK.

Let's take our time and get onthe same page. I'll give you soft signals before signaling and if you could do the same. I'll make eye contact on every out of bounds. Let me know what you are thinking (soft signal) and I'll do the same then signal together. If we are one different pages and it's in your area, I'm going with you. If it's way up the line, please mirror me. If you are positive, give me a head nod that you are certain and I'll go with you. The important thing is to get it right.

Soft signals.... ar... flag down but in the hand for direction of throw/kick. CR hand down at side but arm out slightlyaway from body in the direction I'm thinking. For gk/ck... . AR prepares to signal from the goal line. If they are next to the flag, I know they are thinking Gk. If they are one step separated, the are thinking CK. For me as CR, if I am leaning slight forward, I am thinking gk. If I am straight up shoulders back.... I'm thinking ck. This is tougher to read but the body language is pretty easy to pick up on if you do it often.

Have I flagged a PK clear on the far side of the PA as an AR? Yes.... defending team coach came unglued. It is a very unusual occurrance as a Cr should be quite close and AR 40 yards away... this one was a clear straight arm shove taking the player out and the players' bodies would have prevented the CR from seeing it. Tough sell but I'd do it again but we had covered it in the pregame. Bad situation if we had not and he disagreed. It would erode match control us very publicly disagreeing on a KMI. Ultimately his call and the AR is there to A-sist not IN-sist
 
Brilliant post :)

The bit I’m interested in small one but something I’ve asked about before.

Flagging GK from the goal line. I think this makes sense and in the prem it’s how they roll. But this doesn’t seem universal. Is it taught in the US and elsewhere?
 
santa sangria said:
Brilliant post :)

The bit I’m interested in small one but something I’ve asked about before.

Flagging GK from the goal line. I think this makes sense and in the prem it’s how they roll. But this doesn’t seem universal. Is it taught in the US and elsewhere?
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It's also unnecessary and no longer required from the start of the season before last!

You flag if the ck/gk isn't obvious and flag from where ever you are along the touch line. No need to crab/move down towards the goal line to sell a decision if he's pinged it over from 30 yards
 
es1 said:
It's also unnecessary and no longer required from the start of the season before last!

You flag if the ck/gk isn't obvious and flag from where ever you are along the touch line. No need to crab/move down towards the goal line to sell a decision if he's pinged it over from 30 yards
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I mean in cases where it’s not obvious. And especially when you’ve followed the ball so you are at the goal line to make the decision.

Is it global that you move to the goal line or even behind the corner flag (a la prem) for GK and take a few steps for corner?
 
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