RefSix

Another sin bin question...

Viking

Q-1994, Re-qualified 2019 Worcestershire UK
#21
Your memory is excellent. If you have to go back 25 years to think of an incident like this, you are doing well. :)

I very much disagree with the notion that the referee has to explain to players the reason for a sanction. In many cases the player's staste of mind is such that any engagement is an invitation for further dissent or offinabus. This is not just for dissent cases. A reckless revenge tackle for example is the same . The player is looking for an opportunity to have a go at you.

To answer your question, "positively influencing player behaviour" doesn't just apply to incident management. It starts from the moment you get into the grounds.

I'd go B first. I would have had to see your body language but this would have been a good example of showing card and walking away, everyone including the player would have known what the card is for. If you engage with player where it is not needed then it wont rate too high in positively influencing. But if it is a requirement then perhaps moving to question A can help.

Question A. TBH if I had to explain (as a requirement for every card) then I would have likely done the same. However hindsight is wonderful. How about this sequence: he says it. You blow the whistle a double toot not too laud - just enough to get everyone's attention, you pause a second or two with a calm body language you put a smile on you face. You are not upset, you have not been offended and you are managing this situation professionally. If he is a distance from you, you walk towards him (not run). Stop about 2 meters away from him. "Mate you know you can't say that to a referee. And as a referee I can't just ignore it. This is leaving me no other option". Depending on the context and the rest of the game I might add "If I don't sanction this now then all respect for my authority in the game is lost". Then show the yellow with confidence but ensure there is no confrontational body language. Body language is very important to ensure this is not personal, you are not doing this to take revenge because he called you a joke. You are doing it because he called the referee (the authority) a joke and the game expects a caution. He had a go at you, if he feel that your response is a personal one then it increases the chances of a come back to your response. Sorry for the long post but hopefully this clears up my view. I must add, in practice i am not very good in player management and its something i am continually working on.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I’m quietly pleased you would have done the same thing given the same set of circumstances 25 years ago. TBH though, what I did on the that day was to just follow the LOTG as I’d been taught to.

I suspect that some referees would have just smiled off the ‘Well you are’ comment and said something along the lines that any more and action will be taken. However, just smiling it off, to me, appears to lead to the sorts of reactions that follow a vast number of cautions in the EPL, when the player clearly shows dissent (by word or action) at the referee’s decision.

The rugby model is a good one and I’d suggest that if we in football followed that model, then there’d be less dissent, fouls etc. There seems to be a willingness (in several forum posters, including yours above) to help the player by running out of earshot or turning a blind eye, as if it’s the referee’s overriding aim to keep 11 a side on the pitch or cards in pocket.

My view is that by ‘laying down the law’ early on, these niggly, potential run away situations do not occur because players aren’t stupid enough to do anything once they realise you’re ‘one of those’ refs. It worked for me in the game 25 years ago because there were no further incidents and I’ve found that disciplinary action helps in all games I’ve refereed, bar one.

I was interested in the distinction you made between the feeling of dissent being personal and using the authority argument. I could never imagine using a revenge card and acting in a way that suggested revenge whilst showing a card. When I’m an official, everything a player says to me is me as an official and I will act as an official.

I don’t think you were condoning a comeback from a player – only suggesting that this might be a response if the player thinks the ref was doing something for revenge, but this line of thinking that a player is somehow not responsible for his actions, because of the actions of a referee (i.e. not card and dash), upsets me greatly. The position of referee should be respected at all times by both referee and players, but the players should really understand the LOTG, as it the game that they play and therefore should be responsible for their actions at all times.
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#22
One. I cautioned a player 25 years ago for calling me 'a bloody joke'. I was taught to say exactly what I was cautioning him for, so I repeated what he had said. He then said, 'well you are', so I cautioned him again and sent him on his way.
Respect. I would do the same.
I personally wouldn't have.

In the situation you describe above, I'd have simply looked him in the eye and said something like: "Okay that's it now, open your mouth again and you're off - no more warnings".

Dissent can be borne of anger and frustration or it can just be a general lack of respect for the person in black with the whistle. Either way, it's up to you to deal with it as you see fit. Sometimes player behaviour gives you no choice, but I'll always err on the "management" side of things if I can rather than arbitrarily act in a way that might directly affect the outcome of the whole match.

I get more satisfaction (personally) from having used my people skills and/or personality to force a player to show me respect (in this case STFU) than I would by holding up a red card. :) :cool:
 

Viking

Q-1994, Re-qualified 2019 Worcestershire UK
#23
You've disappointed me Kes. I had you down as a stand for no nonsense ref. :D

On a serious note, you've caveated the cards by leaving it up to the ref, which of course I agree with. The bit that always sounds odd to me is when you then discuss the 'management' part as STFU - and that if he does then he stays on. My thought always then turns to the next player who shows lack of respect for the official - as I believe this player did. To be consistent you would then YC him and then next one ....... It would make sense to act first on the double YC and then others certainly won't follow suit, as in fact happened in my game. Have you found your management of a game go when you've told him to STFU?

When you say 'I'll always err on the "management" side of things if I can rather than arbitrarily act in a way that might directly affect the outcome of the whole match' I'm left thinking that you've put the onus on the ref to keep the player on the FOP when my thought is that they are responsible for their behaviour and if their behaviour falls short, then the consequences may be cards.

Your satisfaction comment is interesting and got me thinking as to why I enjoy reffing. As I have only done youth games recently, for me it's been all about the education, both of players and coaches. It's nice to hear that players/coaches and even parents have come up to say how much they enjoyed the game and were actually appreciative of me explaining my decisions so all could see why they were given. That may change when I do OA again next week though.
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#24
You've disappointed me Kes. I had you down as a stand for no nonsense ref. :D

LOL. I'm full of surprises me!! :D

On a serious note, you've caveated the cards by leaving it up to the ref, which of course I agree with. The bit that always sounds odd to me is when you then discuss the 'management' part as STFU - and that if he does then he stays on. My thought always then turns to the next player who shows lack of respect for the official - as I believe this player did. To be consistent you would then YC him and then next one ....... It would make sense to act first on the double YC and then others certainly won't follow suit, as in fact happened in my game. Have you found your management of a game go when you've told him to STFU?

Each game is refereed based on what experience has taught me mate. The LOTG are the instruction booklet sure, but I've found that sometimes, by being less robotic with them, and employing a few people skills, it can make for a more enjoyable experience all round. I won't deny that approach has backfired on me once or twice but more often than not, it hasn't. I like to think that my answer to your post (were I in your situation) would illustrate to players that I'm actually a human being who is in control of the match as opposed to a robot who is just reacting to a given scenario. Like I said, the satisfaction comes from having the power to ruin his day, reminding him of the fact (verbally) and yet not having to resort to it because he now knows I'm a "no nonsense" referee. ;) :)

When you say 'I'll always err on the "management" side of things if I can rather than arbitrarily act in a way that might directly affect the outcome of the whole match' I'm left thinking that you've put the onus on the ref to keep the player on the FOP when my thought is that they are responsible for their behaviour and if their behaviour falls short, then the consequences may be cards.

I agree totally with that "ethos". But no, I don't consider it mine or any referee's responsibility to keep a player on the FOP - especially if he deserves to walk. There's a few instances where you literally have no choice but others such as OFFINABUS (not directed at the referee) between two players where the "management" side is all that's needed.

Your satisfaction comment is interesting and got me thinking as to why I enjoy reffing. As I have only done youth games recently, for me it's been all about the education, both of players and coaches. It's nice to hear that players/coaches and even parents have come up to say how much they enjoyed the game and were actually appreciative of me explaining my decisions so all could see why they were given. That may change when I do OA again next week though.
I totally get the "education" side of things too - particularly where youngsters are concerned. But remember, you can still educate without bringing the full force of Law 12 to bear unless it's really required. Take your scenario for instance - A lot of players genuinely think that because you've now blown the whistle and are cautioning them anyway, it's carte blanche authority to simply carry on gobbing off without further penalty, just as so many players think it's acceptable to call each other C&5nts etc during the game. I'd still consider myself educating the player if I use my voice to warn them of the consequences first. There's no ambiguity in what I say, whereas a sudden or unexpected card is punitive rather than educational. :) :cool:
 

Viking

Q-1994, Re-qualified 2019 Worcestershire UK
#25
Kes, appreciated your response. Your comment 'a sudden or unexpected card is punitive rather than educational'. I suppose YHTBT 25 years ago but the player knew what he had said, and he also knew he was taking the pIss (or rather showing more dissent etc) when he followed it up with his second comment. Therefore the second YC wouldn't have been unexpected for him. I would also assume that he never did that again to any ref and therefore my course of action was very educational. However, his teammates said to me later that he was always like that and it wasn't the first time that he gone off for it.

I'll report back when I start a riot next Sunday morning.
 
#26
I personally wouldn't have.

In the situation you describe above, I'd have simply looked him in the eye and said something like: "Okay that's it now, open your mouth again and you're off - no more warnings".

Dissent can be borne of anger and frustration or it can just be a general lack of respect for the person in black with the whistle. Either way, it's up to you to deal with it as you see fit. Sometimes player behaviour gives you no choice, but I'll always err on the "management" side of things if I can rather than arbitrarily act in a way that might directly affect the outcome of the whole match.

I get more satisfaction (personally) from having used my people skills and/or personality to force a player to show me respect (in this case STFU) than I would by holding up a red card. :) :cool:
I have no desire to give out cards and/or dismiss people. But... by not giving the second yellow you are allowing the player to get away with it.

I think if other players are in earshot you absolutely have to... which suggests it is deserved...

There’s a thin line between YMMV and LWR!
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#27
Kes, appreciated your response. Your comment 'a sudden or unexpected card is punitive rather than educational'. I suppose YHTBT 25 years ago but the player knew what he had said, and he also knew he was taking the pIss (or rather showing more dissent etc) when he followed it up with his second comment. Therefore the second YC wouldn't have been unexpected for him. I would also assume that he never did that again to any ref and therefore my course of action was very educational. However, his teammates said to me later that he was always like that and it wasn't the first time that he gone off for it.

I'll report back when I start a riot next Sunday morning.
For the record, I was in no way suggesting you shouldn't have done what you did - I never do that on here - I'll only offer up what I myself would have done based on the detail given. By the sound of it, now you've given me a bit more info, I'd have done exactly the same. :)

Good luck next Sunday by the way ... :) :cool:
 

Kes

I'll Decide ...
#28
I have no desire to give out cards and/or dismiss people. But... by not giving the second yellow you are allowing the player to get away with it.

I think if other players are in earshot you absolutely have to... which suggests it is deserved...

There’s a thin line between YMMV and LWR!
I generally agree with that - but I always keep my options open for genuine player ignorance which I can educate against with the power of my personality and a thousand yard stare!! :D ;)
 

RustyRef

Administrator
Staff member
#29
There's no right and wrong on this. When I used to manage I always said to the players that if they said anything to the referee that wasn't positive they took a risk, something like "that's rubbish ref" could get anything from a smile, a minor telling off, a public telling off, a dissent caution or even a red card for some referees. You pays your money and you takes your chances, say nothing and you don't give the referee, who might be having a bad day and might not be in a good mood, the chance to get a card out.

I've seen referees send off for comments that wouldn't get anything other than a smile from me, but equally I've probably cautioned and sent off for comments that other referees wouldn't. Let's not beat each other up for not being consistent, the issue is with the players and their gobs, not us.
 

Justylove

RefChat Addict
#30
There's no right and wrong on this. When I used to manage I always said to the players that if they said anything to the referee that wasn't positive they took a risk, something like "that's rubbish ref" could get anything from a smile, a minor telling off, a public telling off, a dissent caution or even a red card for some referees. You pays your money and you takes your chances, say nothing and you don't give the referee, who might be having a bad day and might not be in a good mood, the chance to get a card out.

I've seen referees send off for comments that wouldn't get anything other than a smile from me, but equally I've probably cautioned and sent off for comments that other referees wouldn't. Let's not beat each other up for not being consistent, the issue is with the players and their gobs, not us.
When my son used to play, he was in the same team as the son of a former Premier League player who also ran the Academy of the same club he played for.

When it came to dissent or giving away penalties, his point was always "regardless of whether the referee has got it right or wrong, as a player, you've given them a decision to make, once you do that, it's outside of your control. Complain all you like about the outcome, but the best way is to ensure that you're not presenting them with that opportunity "
 

one

RefChat Addict
#31
Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I’m quietly pleased you would have done the same thing given the same set of circumstances 25 years ago. TBH though, what I did on the that day was to just follow the LOTG as I’d been taught to.

I suspect that some referees would have just smiled off the ‘Well you are’ comment and said something along the lines that any more and action will be taken. However, just smiling it off, to me, appears to lead to the sorts of reactions that follow a vast number of cautions in the EPL, when the player clearly shows dissent (by word or action) at the referee’s decision.

The rugby model is a good one and I’d suggest that if we in football followed that model, then there’d be less dissent, fouls etc. There seems to be a willingness (in several forum posters, including yours above) to help the player by running out of earshot or turning a blind eye, as if it’s the referee’s overriding aim to keep 11 a side on the pitch or cards in pocket.

My view is that by ‘laying down the law’ early on, these niggly, potential run away situations do not occur because players aren’t stupid enough to do anything once they realise you’re ‘one of those’ refs. It worked for me in the game 25 years ago because there were no further incidents and I’ve found that disciplinary action helps in all games I’ve refereed, bar one.

I was interested in the distinction you made between the feeling of dissent being personal and using the authority argument. I could never imagine using a revenge card and acting in a way that suggested revenge whilst showing a card. When I’m an official, everything a player says to me is me as an official and I will act as an official.

I don’t think you were condoning a comeback from a player – only suggesting that this might be a response if the player thinks the ref was doing something for revenge, but this line of thinking that a player is somehow not responsible for his actions, because of the actions of a referee (i.e. not card and dash), upsets me greatly. The position of referee should be respected at all times by both referee and players, but the players should really understand the LOTG, as it the game that they play and therefore should be responsible for their actions at all times.
To clarify I am not saying or implying you or I are responsible for player's behavior. In fact in my previous posts i have always made it clear that players are always responsible and accountable for their own actions, no matter what the referee (or anyone else for that matter) does.

I was asked to give opinion on a post with very little context and thin on description of delivery and how things were done. Hence my reference to seeing the body language.

Let me put my point about "positively influencing player behavior" a different way. There are player that no matter what you (or anyone else) do, they do what they want and don't care the slightest about consequences. They are out of the equation for this discussion. There are also those who have very good heads on their shoulders and even if the snap every now and then, they cop any punishment with an apology. They really don't need to be in this discussion either. Its the middle group that we are talking about. They can be influence by their environment and others, especially by the referee, some easier than others.

If the latter group player does something wrong, I am not responsible for it, but if they do something good or avoid doing something bad, i'd like to be the one who takes partial credit for it because I'd like to claim to have created an environment that lead to that sort of behavior. Figuratively, if I see a player digging a hole for themselves, even though I have the choice of doing nothing, I'd like to help then get out of it if I can . And that my friend is "positively influencing player behavior" (easier said than done) :)
 

Nij

Active Member
#32
When my son used to play, he was in the same team as the son of a former Premier League player who also ran the Academy of the same club he played for.

When it came to dissent or giving away penalties, his point was always "regardless of whether the referee has got it right or wrong, as a player, you've given them a decision to make, once you do that, it's outside of your control. Complain all you like about the outcome, but the best way is to ensure that you're not presenting them with that opportunity "
In other words, "Don't make me make a decision, because it might be one you don't like".
 
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